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 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : Science & Technology
Message Icon Topic: Concept of Creation VS Chance Post Reply Post New Topic
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nadir
 
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Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2005 at 5:06pm

 

 

Peace be upon you, Angel

 

 

If I may humbly add…..

 

 

I did not wish to discuss the science that I have done (in this forum), before I had discussed it with someone in a better position than I (with regards to resources [religiously & worldly], & the stability they bring). Unfortunately people were either scientifically unawares, or completely ignored me (as was the case in the emails I sent).

 

I can answer science questions for you…..

 

…but because I don’t feel like the knowledge belongs to me (I do not want to glorify myself), I do not ask you for a wage (ie write a book claiming stardom, & then charge you). However this has left me with nothing worldly, which in turn leads to a kind of mental torture, a result of the poverty & loneliness.

 

This is not a call for your sympathy, rather an explanation of why I do not deem myself (currently) in a position to continue with these discussions. I may have to ‘forget’ I know anything (religiously & scientifically), & start non-skilled job, so as to free myself from my current predicament. However I could have done this from the very beginning, & I would not have needed an Islamic community to do so……. hence I seek that community & its purpose?

 

 

…Peace be upon you, & the Mercy & Blessings of Allah      

    

 

        
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2005 at 6:45am

Nadir, Ok

Don't worry, we all have our limits

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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midway
 
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Quote midway Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2005 at 2:25pm

 

 

O sweet Angel, unto you I do return

 

Grace me with your presence, for it is a time I do not wish to spurn

 

Originally posted by Angel

As much as I believe that - I believe it (science) is much more than that.

And I've come to know that its not the scientists job to prove or disprove God.

There are scientists who believe in God's existence and there are scientists that don't.

I don't believe I missunderstood when I posed those 2 questions of mine. I don't believe science is there to prove morality or not, partly why I asked why does science have to have moral purpose ?

 

“Why does science have to have God (in it)?”

O sweet Angel, softly whisper in my ear, what is the purpose of this science, of which I hear?

 

Originally posted by Angel

But Nadir, you are coming from Islam! Not everyone believes the purpose of existence is to worship Allah/God. And not everyone believes in Islam whether they are scientists or not. (Not that should shut the door on some knowledge islam may offer).

 

OK, now as midway, on a level plane we stand…

 

“(Not that should shut the door on some knowledge Islam may offer)”

If you are attracted to ‘some’ of the knowledge Islam offers, will you please share with me your – ‘some not’?

Originally posted by Angel

{{You do realise this is all presumptions of us here ;-) so nothing is probably truth?}}

Why are they foolish because they have different result/evidence to believe in God from you ?

"If they have already made a conclusion, does that mean they profess to know the Unseen?"

No of course not, as I said earlier its not their job. Believing in God is somewhat a personally issue. I believe in God and have a few things that go with it but it does not make me know the unseen.

Do you profess to know the unseen ?

I know I am not wasting my time with you! And I am sure you could show me a thing or two about God & Luuuuve!!!!! heee heee

 

Does the one who seeks to unravel a mystery, know what they will discover?

Originally posted by Angel

Where did Darwin come into this

What I mean is that I agree with Deist when he mentioned its not whether one believes or not in God - even though he spoke about himself. I'm not sure what Darwin has to do with it?

 

Darwin’s theory of evolution is one of the foundations supporting atheistic (ie Chance as a pose to Creation) scientific opinions, hence the reason I mentioned it/him.

 

Originally posted by Angel

Again repeat :

And I am not sure what this has to with Creation vs Chance”

Nadir, since you came in with your talk perhaps you can tell us what your talk has to do with creation vs chance? I think somewhere along the line it got missed as nearly all has to do with that you have evidence for the existence of God

 

I mentioned the science I know of, in this debate, because it supports the Creationist side of the argument. Sorry I have been ‘hard-work’, true wisdom/knowledge will have the effect of humbling, as a pose to making one haughty.        

 

Originally posted by Angel

nadir wrote:
If I may enlighten you with regards to evolution, and REAL chance/choice…

If you were to believe Darwin’s theory, then the thing we call LOVE, is simply a genetically inherited trait, which has been passed down through the genes, as it enhances the chance of human survival. Hence in Darwinian terms there is less choice than in Creationism, as it least in Creationism - LOVE - is a real emotion, which we are free to give (& accept) to whom we please. Darwin’s theory suggests that, LOVE is merely genetic instinct, of which we have no control!

 

This perhaps requires a new thread.

 

From my own personal experience…

 

Within the Chance side of the debate, I (as an emotional entity) am incapacitated…

This is because ‘I’ am merely a product of genetic inheritance. From here, this thing I know of as Love, is a predetermined trait! Hence I am (genetically) restricted in how much it/I can grow & achieve. (From experience) I (personally) have no hope here…

 

Within the Creationist side of the debate, I am free…

God has promised that, if I do good works & grow closer to Him, the possibilities are endless. From here, I can take my Love (a real emotion) & improve, beautify and expand it immeasurably. I have hope here… hope that comforts my soul

 

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lionslayer
 
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Quote lionslayer Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2005 at 7:04pm

alsaam-u aalaikum:

i wonder, if there is such a thing, if evolution could possible be gods work, maybe thats how he delivered adam and hawa? through the prossess of evolution, like a baby going through its stages of birth, man wouldn't carry the same kind of soul that is in adam, more like that of any animal. when the moment was right he sent adam and hawas' souls to them. Allahs' religion is not always straight forward, sometimes meanings are in a literal 2nd or 3rd dimension, so when its said that adam and hawa were sent to earth does it have to mean that he picked them up and put them in their mature form on earth....i'm sure if he wanted to he could but alllah knows best.

these are some ideas i've been toying with....any comment? 

lionslayer
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 7:20am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim

 

Originally posted by lionslayer

alsaam-u aalaikum:

i wonder, if there is such a thing, if evolution could possible be gods work, maybe thats how he delivered adam and hawa? through the prossess of evolution, like a baby going through its stages of birth, man wouldn't carry the same kind of soul that is in adam, more like that of any animal. when the moment was right he sent adam and hawas' souls to them. Allahs' religion is not always straight forward, sometimes meanings are in a literal 2nd or 3rd dimension, so when its said that adam and hawa were sent to earth does it have to mean that he picked them up and put them in their mature form on earth....i'm sure if he wanted to he could but alllah knows best.

these are some ideas i've been toying with....any comment? 

Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

Indeed allah knows best how He created Adam and Eve. To help the generation of adam understand the process, He revealed it in the Quran.

The creation of Adam and Eve, for a muslim is, as it has been mentioned in their holy book. For more information please refer it.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 9:53am

As'Salaamu Alaikum and God's Blessings to non-Muslims here,

As sister Nausheen intelligently mentions the perfect reference is Quran, but it also helps studying the various sciences as well (math, science, philosophy, physics etc) to get a well rounded view as well on this subject I mean. I believe the issue here is coming to grips with Creation Vs Chance obviously, but it shouldn't be an issue here for believers. God says in the Qur'an  "this (creation) was not created in vain." that should sum it up. Because some of you think I have a big motuh I won't comment  on more on this but this should be sufficient

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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 10:22am
When you draw a picture, you have two choices. Draw the outlines of the
subject, or draw the outline of the background and let the subject reveal
itself.

Likewise, one can start with science and describe its' outer limits as it
approaches the source of life, or start with scripture and trace it out as it
approaches human experience.

A good drawing uses both techniques, as does good theology.
David C.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 1:50pm
very nice post david!
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