IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Concept of Creation VS Chance

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kim!

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Posted: 08 May 2005 at 5:29pm

Originally posted by nadir

A Muslim believes in the Unseen, hence needs not be perplexed like the scientists, who crave this knowledge for fame, & more importantly - ‘absolute power’.

Absolute power to do what? Cure diseases? Gee - what an evil bunch of people scientists are.

And as for "all scientists are only after the money", well that's a load of tripe to start with. Sure- if you made such a statement about _companies_ like Pfizer or MonSanto, then sure, you and I are in total agreement. SOme companies are Evil.

But if you look at the years and years it take to get qualified in any sort of scientific field, the years of work and sweat and lost sleep and sacrifice it takes to earn qualifications and get the sort of job you want, then you will realised that the vast majority of people in science are only working for the good of others and in order to use their own talents the best way possible. Ask Nausheen, for example!

I have many friends who are in various fields of science who are studying for the Masters degree, or their PhDs or who already have their PhDs. They are, or are going to be, great people in their communities and I very much admire tham, but sure as hell I am not going to do the same - they work too hard and sacrifice so much (and besides, they are waaaay cleverer than I ;)

I find your assertions that most scientists are godless, evil, scary people quite bizarre. I have a friend who is a lecturer in aeronautical engineering, she also has a PhD in metalurgy (I think it's metalurgy). She goes to church every week, is on her church committee, she takes Sunday school classes and is a Big Fan of God. However, she thinks creationism is a load of twaddle and is, therefore, also a Big Fan of the Theory of Evolution.

I think it's quite understandable that the further some scientists get into their field, the closer they might feel to God. Why? the more they discover, the more they realise that the universe is a wonderous and amazing place, full of wonderous and amazing creatures and events.

There is NO reason why God and Science cannot co-exist and why they cannot complement each other.

Kim...

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kim!

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Posted: 08 May 2005 at 5:40pm

Originally posted by nadir

I am unable to show you any proof (of the unity between the energy forces, & gravity [general relativity]), over the Internet, because not only does the explanation require ‘diagrams’ to illustrate, but also in depth explanation, to overcome the false perceptions that have been implanted in peoples minds.

Some of here HAVE studied maths and physics and such - so please, send us an explanation, even if it's brief with bits left out (we can alwasy ask questions later). How can we defend ourselves from your anger when you have not even presented us with the things you accuse us of not believing?

The only thing we believe so far is that we don't know what you're talking about.

Kim...

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kim!

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Posted: 08 May 2005 at 5:49pm

Anyway, I have no problem with the concept that science is just another way of revealing the existence of God. Science and what it reveals is so amazing, I can hardly see how anyone could think otherwise.

Sure - science has lead to bad things (atom bomb), but then so has religion (crusades). It's human nature - we always get stuff wrong and are blatantly stupid. Doesn't mean that science is wrong and God is dead. It just means people are idiots.

I believe that evolution is the best theory we have so far to explain why the earth is like it is and I believe that if there is a God, God has given us the ability to make our own choices. God can see where all our choices will lead us, but not much stuff (if any) is pre-destined. That would not be fair - how could God punish us for any of our choices if EVERYTHING was pre-destined? What would be the purpose of our existence if everything was predestined?

Kim...

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deist

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Posted: 09 May 2005 at 12:30am

Greetings and peace,

Originally posted by nadir

You approach me with a viewpoint that has only ever seen ‘one side of the coin’ (ie I know from the way you discuss things you do not, or have not known/applied – Islam).

I would say that you definetly judge too fast :)

I was raised with (the Christian version of) secular values, and yes I knew of morality, however I was to find out in time that the morality I knew, was built upon unsound foundations. I turned to Buddhism, which I studied for several years, and despite there been no mention of One God (One Creator, One Force - Controlling Existence) within the teachings, my meditations and the knowledge I perceived told me otherwise.

What you state here is that you found your truth to be the one you mention. Thats in a way nothing else than what i said already. The problem arises when you are asked or when you come forward to show others why this has to be the absolute truth. Because all that then comes is a relative statement that may fit for your view, but not nessesarily for the views of others.
And it is not really related to "known truth" but rather to "believed truth"

I have already told you that I can scientifically prove what I claim (there is only One Ilah [God] – Allah), proof I have not shown you.

Well a lot of peopole say a lot of things nadir ;)

I am though (through confidence in what I know) able to challenge you, because I know you are unable to prove that there is no God, whether your proof is scientific, or moral.

Of course it is impossible to show that there exists no god at all. Actually the request is without sense. First of all its not even my job to disproove "a" god as its rather YOUR task to proove him. Secondly "god" is not even really defined so one hardly can disproove all that people could call god.

You will perhaps see the limits of your view when someone comes and tells you to disproove that there are TWO Gods.

You cant disproove that either.

I say you pick on Sister Alwardah, because you question her belief (“Since you believe in what you want it actually doesnt matter for you if you can proove it . Actually one might even argue that it doesnt matter for any believer even if someone would bring forth evidence or even proof that the belief is wrong. I do not really have a problem with that.”)

I didnt "pick" on her. What i said was just normal rational thought without any "intentions" as you imply here. I asked for some evidence and she provided an answer that was related to hope, fullfillment and "sense of life". Again ... i dont mind her answer at all. I only state that this is not evidence but an expression of ones wishes. There is nothnig negative here.

I have approached you stating I have proof (of One Ilah), & yet you continue to deny my words (Islam, is the religion Of Allah, the One, & Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe), despite not having the tiniest amount of evidence saying otherwise. Hence please do not use these means to disagree (& disrespect Alwardah), when you, yourself are guiltier of what you state, than she.

Ok let us repeat that slowly...
You come and say you have evidence. And you dont even bring it forward. And now i am the one to blame because i deny your words ?
And i am to blame because i dont have evidence that your (not even postet) "proof" is wrong ?
I think you should rethink your statement here.

And I didnt show any disrespect for Alwardah, nor is it required that YOU intervene on her behalf here.
Her statement stands and mine does too.

I am a person who knew not of Islam, however upon embracing Islam, & comparing (& applying) it’s Laws, to the laws I was previously aware of (applying), I can certify that Islam is Morally Superior to anything I have ever encompassed, I can even say – infallible (although I know you will not like me for saying so), obviously we as humans are not.

I respect that belief of yours.

Are you able to say (after having applied the Laws of Islam to your life), Islam is not the Law of Allah (SWT), or are you really not sure, as you have not experienced – Islam?

Listen, i had that "then you have no real knowledge of islam" or the "you must learn first" topics for decades. Its the same that all believers of all religions allways tell others when someone doesnt believe their specific ideas of life and universe.

In relation to your last point….. Did those ‘forces’ exist, before the men who discovered them?

Sure

If the men who discovered them are clever, how clever is the Force that created them in the first place?

Again you make a mistake because you assume that some intelligent force was needed to "create" them.
The cosmological proof is quite nice but its not conclusive nadir.

So who gives then the right to claim credit for a force, when they had no part in creating it?

We give credit to people that do remarkable things or discover things.
The Bolzman constant was discovered by Bolzmann, so it was named Bolzman constant. I see no problem with that.

Peace
Deist

PS: An advice for you would be to read less "into" my texts and stick more to the words. My "intentions" are far less "dubious" than you seem to think.

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deist

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Posted: 09 May 2005 at 12:33am

Greetings and peace,

Originally posted by Alwardah

Originally posted by deist

What i often have a problem is that often enough people want to "proove" their belief by making the very statements that show that their belief is not based on facts but on wishes and "intuition".

Alhamdulillah (All Praises are to Allah) You have a problem with that, I don't.

So you believe a buddist when he "prooves" his religion by making statements that are not based on facts but rather on intuition ?

Al-Qur'an - Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51: 56

"I have created Jinn and men, that they may worship Me Only."

I don't need any more proof than that

I think we simply talk about different understandings of the word "proof". ;)

Peace
Deist

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Alwardah

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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 3:56am

Originally posted by deist

So you believe a buddist when he "prooves" his religion by making statements that are not based on facts but rather on intuition ?

sori don't know much about Buddhism

I think we simply talk about different understandings of the word "proof". ;)
Peace
Deist

you are correctto each his own

“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)

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kim!

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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 5:37am

If we do not decide on the meaning of proof, then we may as well stop arguing now, else we will never, ever be able to stop. If we cannot agree on anything ever, then there's no point. If we cannot even manage to talk about the same thing at any point, then there is no point.

Kim...

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deist

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Posted: 10 May 2005 at 6:14am

Originally posted by Alwardah

Originally posted by deist

So you believe a buddist when he "prooves" his religion by making statements that are not based on facts but rather on intuition ?

sori don't know much about Buddhism

Is that not totaly unimportant if you dont rely on the facts but on the intuition ? ;)

I think we simply talk about different understandings of the word "proof". ;)
Peace
Deist

you are correctto each his own

I see this differently. As kim said if one doesnt agree to some terms and definitions then discussion is senseless.
"Proof" generally has a meaning. An accepted one.
Perhaps it would be wiser to say that you dont need anything else than the verse you quoted. To call that verse a "proof" however is not really reasonable.

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Topic: Concept of Creation VS Chance
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kim! Senior Member Joined: 17 September 2001 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2390	Posted: 08 May 2005 at 5:29pm
	*Originally posted by nadir* A Muslim believes in the Unseen, hence needs not be perplexed like the scientists, who crave this knowledge for fame, & more importantly - ‘absolute power’. Absolute power to do what? Cure diseases? Gee - what an evil bunch of people scientists are. And as for "all scientists are only after the money", well that's a load of tripe to start with. Sure- if you made such a statement about _companies_ like Pfizer or MonSanto, then sure, you and I are in total agreement. SOme companies are Evil. But if you look at the years and years it take to get qualified in any sort of scientific field, the years of work and sweat and lost sleep and sacrifice it takes to earn qualifications and get the sort of job you want, then you will realised that the vast majority of people in science are only working for the good of others and in order to use their own talents the best way possible. Ask Nausheen, for example! I have many friends who are in various fields of science who are studying for the Masters degree, or their PhDs or who already have their PhDs. They are, or are going to be, great people in their communities and I very much admire tham, but sure as hell I am not going to do the same - they work too hard and sacrifice so much (and besides, they are waaaay cleverer than I ;) I find your assertions that most scientists are godless, evil, scary people quite bizarre. I have a friend who is a lecturer in aeronautical engineering, she also has a PhD in metalurgy (I think it's metalurgy). She goes to church every week, is on her church committee, she takes Sunday school classes and is a Big Fan of God. However, she thinks creationism is a load of twaddle and is, therefore, also a Big Fan of the Theory of Evolution. I think it's quite understandable that the further some scientists get into their field, the closer they might feel to God. Why? the more they discover, the more they realise that the universe is a wonderous and amazing place, full of wonderous and amazing creatures and events. There is NO reason why God and Science cannot co-exist and why they cannot complement each other. Kim...
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kim! Senior Member Joined: 17 September 2001 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2390	Posted: 08 May 2005 at 5:40pm
	*Originally posted by nadir* I am unable to show you any proof (of the unity between the energy forces, & gravity [general relativity]), over the Internet, because not only does the explanation require ‘diagrams’ to illustrate, but also in depth explanation, to overcome the false perceptions that have been implanted in peoples minds. Some of here HAVE studied maths and physics and such - so please, send us an explanation, even if it's brief with bits left out (we can alwasy ask questions later). How can we defend ourselves from your anger when you have not even presented us with the things you accuse us of not believing? The only thing we believe so far is that we don't know what you're talking about. Kim...
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kim! Senior Member Joined: 17 September 2001 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2390	Posted: 08 May 2005 at 5:49pm
	Anyway, I have no problem with the concept that science is just another way of revealing the existence of God. Science and what it reveals is so amazing, I can hardly see how anyone could think otherwise. Sure - science has lead to bad things (atom bomb), but then so has religion (crusades). It's human nature - we always get stuff wrong and are blatantly stupid. Doesn't mean that science is wrong and God is dead. It just means people are idiots. I believe that evolution is the best theory we have so far to explain why the earth is like it is and I believe that if there is a God, God has given us the ability to make our own choices. God can see where all our choices will lead us, but not much stuff (if any) is pre-destined. That would not be fair - how could God punish us for any of our choices if EVERYTHING was pre-destined? What would be the purpose of our existence if everything was predestined? Kim...
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deist Senior Member Joined: 11 June 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3568	Posted: 09 May 2005 at 12:30am
	Greetings and peace, *Originally posted by nadir* You approach me with a viewpoint that has only ever seen ‘one side of the coin’ (ie I know from the way you discuss things you do not, or have not known/applied – Islam). I would say that you definetly judge too fast :) I was raised with (the Christian version of) secular values, and yes I knew of morality, however I was to find out in time that the morality I knew, was built upon unsound foundations. I turned to Buddhism, which I studied for several years, and despite there been no mention of One God (One Creator, One Force - Controlling Existence) within the teachings, my meditations and the knowledge I perceived told me otherwise. What you state here is that you found your truth to be the one you mention. Thats in a way nothing else than what i said already. The problem arises when you are asked or when you come forward to show others why this has to be the absolute truth. Because all that then comes is a relative statement that may fit for your view, but not nessesarily for the views of others. And it is not really related to "known truth" but rather to "believed truth" I have already told you that I can scientifically prove what I claim (there is only One Ilah [God] – Allah), proof I have not shown you. Well a lot of peopole say a lot of things nadir ;) I am though (through confidence in what I know) able to challenge you, because I know you are unable to prove that there is no God, whether your proof is scientific, or moral. Of course it is impossible to show that there exists no god at all. Actually the request is without sense. First of all its not even my job to disproove "a" god as its rather YOUR task to proove him. Secondly "god" is not even really defined so one hardly can disproove all that people could call god. You will perhaps see the limits of your view when someone comes and tells you to disproove that there are TWO Gods. You cant disproove that either. I say you pick on Sister Alwardah, because you question her belief (“Since you believe in what you want it actually doesnt matter for you if you can proove it . Actually one might even argue that it doesnt matter for any believer even if someone would bring forth evidence or even proof that the belief is wrong. I do not really have a problem with that.”) I didnt "pick" on her. What i said was just normal rational thought without any "intentions" as you imply here. I asked for some evidence and she provided an answer that was related to hope, fullfillment and "sense of life". Again ... i dont mind her answer at all. I only state that this is not evidence but an expression of ones wishes. There is nothnig negative here. I have approached you stating I have proof (of One Ilah), & yet you continue to deny my words (Islam, is the religion Of Allah, the One, & Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe), despite not having the tiniest amount of evidence saying otherwise. Hence please do not use these means to disagree (& disrespect Alwardah), when you, yourself are guiltier of what you state, than she. Ok let us repeat that slowly... You come and say you have evidence. And you dont even bring it forward. And now i am the one to blame because i deny your words ? And i am to blame because i dont have evidence that your (not even postet) "proof" is wrong ? I think you should rethink your statement here. And I didnt show any disrespect for Alwardah, nor is it required that YOU intervene on her behalf here. Her statement stands and mine does too. I am a person who knew not of Islam, however upon embracing Islam, & comparing (& applying) it’s Laws, to the laws I was previously aware of (applying), I can certify that Islam is Morally Superior to anything I have ever encompassed, I can even say – infallible (although I know you will not like me for saying so), obviously we as humans are not. I respect that belief of yours. Are you able to say (after having applied the Laws of Islam to your life), Islam is not the Law of Allah (SWT), or are you really not sure, as you have not experienced – Islam? Listen, i had that "then you have no real knowledge of islam" or the "you must learn first" topics for decades. Its the same that all believers of all religions allways tell others when someone doesnt believe their specific ideas of life and universe. In relation to your last point….. Did those ‘forces’ exist, before the men who discovered them? Sure If the men who discovered them are clever, how clever is the Force that created them in the first place? Again you make a mistake because you assume that some intelligent force was needed to "create" them. The cosmological proof is quite nice but its not conclusive nadir. So who gives then the right to claim credit for a force, when they had no part in creating it? We give credit to people that do remarkable things or discover things. The Bolzman constant was discovered by Bolzmann, so it was named Bolzman constant. I see no problem with that. Peace Deist PS: An advice for you would be to read less "into" my texts and stick more to the words. My "intentions" are far less "dubious" than you seem to think.
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deist Senior Member Joined: 11 June 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3568	Posted: 09 May 2005 at 12:33am
	Greetings and peace, *Originally posted by Alwardah* *Originally posted by deist* What i often have a problem is that often enough people want to "proove" their belief by making the very statements that show that their belief is not based on facts but on wishes and "intuition". Alhamdulillah (All Praises are to Allah) You have a problem with that, I don't. So you believe a buddist when he "prooves" his religion by making statements that are not based on facts but rather on intuition ? Al-Qur'an - Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51: 56 "I have created Jinn and men, that they may worship Me Only." I don't need any more proof than that I think we simply talk about different understandings of the word "proof". ;) Peace Deist
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Alwardah Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2005 Location: South Africa Online Status: Offline Posts: 980	Posted: 10 May 2005 at 3:56am
	*Originally posted by deist* So you believe a buddist when he "prooves" his religion by making statements that are not based on facts but rather on intuition ? sori don't know much about Buddhism I think we simply talk about different understandings of the word "proof". ;) Peace Deist you are correctto each his own
	“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165) "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
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kim! Senior Member Joined: 17 September 2001 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2390	Posted: 10 May 2005 at 5:37am
	If we do not decide on the meaning of proof, then we may as well stop arguing now, else we will never, ever be able to stop. If we cannot agree on anything ever, then there's no point. If we cannot even manage to talk about the same thing at any point, then there is no point. Kim...
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deist Senior Member Joined: 11 June 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3568	Posted: 10 May 2005 at 6:14am
	*Originally posted by Alwardah* *Originally posted by deist* So you believe a buddist when he "prooves" his religion by making statements that are not based on facts but rather on intuition ? sori don't know much about Buddhism Is that not totaly unimportant if you dont rely on the facts but on the intuition ? ;) I think we simply talk about different understandings of the word "proof". ;) Peace Deist you are correctto each his own I see this differently. As kim said if one doesnt agree to some terms and definitions then discussion is senseless. "Proof" generally has a meaning. An accepted one. Perhaps it would be wiser to say that you dont need anything else than the verse you quoted. To call that verse a "proof" however is not really reasonable.
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