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 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : Science & Technology
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deist
 
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Quote deist Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2005 at 5:40am
Originally posted by nadir


Deist, please do not pick on Alwardah, when you have not even met my challenge (“I am not hiding, so please if you can find me a challenger on this issue, I am ready & waiting”). If you think I know nothing of the science I have mentioned, it should be doubly easy for you to, make a fool of me. And if you refuse this challenge, then you are accepting that what I am professing (that I am able to scientifically unify the energy forces with gravity [general relativity]), is the truth!

 

Please, please accept my challenge; let me show who really knows!!!

I didnt pick at Alwardah. Why should i ?
As for your challenge i will adress it.
Frankly i didnt see it.
I hope i can give you an answer by the start of next week in the latest because i dont have much time right now.

Originally posted by Alwardah

So what's the discussion we are here by chance or evolved


I think we evolved


Actually u are correct, it doesn't contain proof because it is what I believe in, I believe I was created by the Supreme Creator, and yes I based my belief on what I want and believe to be the truth. And because I believe in creation I don't need proof.

That was the point i tried to convey.
Since you believe in what you want it actually doesnt matter for you if you can proove it . Actually one might even argue that it doesnt matter for any believer even if someone would bring forth evidence or even proof that the belief is wrong.
I do not really have a problem with that.
What  i often have a problem is that often enough people want to "proove" their belief by making the very statements that show that their belief is not based on facts but on wishes and "intuition".

 

Why should I worry about the possible truth about my existence being "unimportant" when I know that all creations are important, not only me.

You mean when you "believe" that ....

 

 


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deist
 
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Quote deist Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2005 at 6:39am
Originally posted by nadir

 

Belief does not exist as an independent entity. A person believes only if what they believe in, bares fruit (whether it be spiritual or physical, in nature).


I think thats already an assumption. Or perhaps i simply misunderstood you here.
I believe the sun moves around the earth. What benefit do i gain from this ?

 

The science vs Divine debate, which is what this really is, dictates that a scientist seeks knowledge of existence, so he/she can ‘understand’/manipulate (physical) existence.

Let us simply accept that for now.

 

Belief in Divine Predestination dictates that a person seeks knowledge of how to please Allah (SWT), so that he/she can find true happiness (in this world & the Hereafter), via morality (the Laws of Islam).

In this passage you already make a logical mistake. Because here you already assume that it is fact that Allah exists and that he want to be pleased, that there is a herafter and that morality comes through islam alone and so on. 
What i try to say is that belief doesnt really carry knowledge or lets you fnid new knowledge but rather defines or already contains the limits within which you may "look" for "truths". These truths however already are defined by the belief.
 

 

If Allah (SWT), the Force that sustains all that exists (Al-Hayyal-Qayyuum - the Ever Lasting, the One who Sustains & Protects All that exists), were to slip into slumber for the smallest fraction of a second, the whole universe would collapse….. I scientifically perceive the quote; I hope you may contemplate the matter further. 


Actually i only see another claim.
Yes you say that this is so. But there is no science and no proof for it.
You could just as well say that he can let the universe operate seperately if he wishes and sleep for a long while.
That claim would carry the same amount of verifiable truth.

 

If you (from a scientific stance) have a need to verify everything (by science), you will miss the point of morality. Please tell me how science can verify how a man made law, passed by a government, will morally effect the population? It cannot, it can only guess (through carrying out surveys of a tiny proportion of the population).


Actually even that would be more than a religion per se does.
Religions generally say that this or that is bad or good. But whether it really is good or bad cant be shown by it. Instead it makes simply claims.
Science when dealing with this can at least empirically show whether something had a bad effect over time or not and then adapt.

 

Ha haa, well you see I haven’t actually given them any of the evidence (that would be rather stupid of me), all I have done is told them that I have discovered something which unifies the forces, scientists have been trying to unify for years. However, intellectual pride comes to mind. What would it mean to all their pompous scientific research, if a person from the street could walk in and solve something, they could not?


For a true scientist it only means that finally someone solved the problem.
 

The forces I refer to are - electro magnetism, nuclear, (so called) atom glue, and gravity (general relativity). These forces are not independent of each other; One Force, Allah (SWT), controls them.


Another claim.

 


I can see what is happening in that; there are people like Stephen Hawkins who are using science as a means to get people to worship them. Did you know he has laid claim to a form of radiation, which we are told emanates from black holes, and called it – ‘Hawkin radiation’!


Actually i dont see him running around asking people to worship him. He is a clever person though. It is rather common to name certain effects or laws after the person who found them or proposed them. Like "Bolzmann constant",  "Newtons laws", "Hubble constant" etc.  I dont know if he proposed the name.

 


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nadir
 
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Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2005 at 12:08pm

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

Deist

 

You approach me with a viewpoint that has only ever seen ‘one side of the coin’ (ie I know from the way you discuss things you do not, or have not known/applied – Islam).

 

 

 

“In this passage you already make a logical mistake. Because here you already assume that it is fact that Allah exists and that he want to be pleased, that there is a herafter and that morality comes through islam alone and so on. 
What i try to say is that belief doesnt really carry knowledge or lets you fnid new knowledge but rather defines or already contains the limits within which you may "look" for "truths". These truths however already are defined by the belief.”

 

 

I was raised with (the Christian version of) secular values, and yes I knew of morality, however I was to find out in time that the morality I knew, was built upon unsound foundations. I turned to Buddhism, which I studied for several years, and despite there been no mention of One God (One Creator, One Force - Controlling Existence) within the teachings, my meditations and the knowledge I perceived told me otherwise.

 

 

 

“Actually i only see another claim.
Yes you say that this is so. But there is no science and no proof for it.
You could just as well say that he can let the universe operate seperately if he wishes and sleep for a long while.
That claim would carry the same amount of verifiable truth.”

 

 

I have already told you that I can scientifically prove what I claim (there is only One Ilah [God] – Allah), proof I have not shown you. I am though (through confidence in what I know) able to challenge you, because I know you are unable to prove that there is no God, whether your proof is scientific, or moral.

 

 

 

I say you pick on Sister Alwardah, because you question her belief (“Since you believe in what you want it actually doesnt matter for you if you can proove it . Actually one might even argue that it doesnt matter for any believer even if someone would bring forth evidence or even proof that the belief is wrong. I do not really have a problem with that.”)

 

 

I have approached you stating I have proof (of One Ilah), & yet you continue to deny my words (Islam, is the religion Of Allah, the One, & Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe), despite not having the tiniest amount of evidence saying otherwise. Hence please do not use these means to disagree (& disrespect Alwardah), when you, yourself are guiltier of what you state, than she.

 

 

 

“Actually even that would be more than a religion per se does.
Religions generally say that this or that is bad or good. But whether it really is good or bad cant be shown by it. Instead it makes simply claims.
Science when dealing with this can at least empirically show whether something had a bad effect over time or not and then adapt.”

 

 

I am a person who knew not of Islam, however upon embracing Islam, & comparing (& applying) it’s Laws, to the laws I was previously aware of (applying), I can certify that Islam is Morally Superior to anything I have ever encompassed, I can even say – infallible (although I know you will not like me for saying so), obviously we as humans are not.

 

 

Are you able to say (after having applied the Laws of Islam to your life), Islam is not the Law of Allah (SWT), or are you really not sure, as you have not experienced – Islam? 

 

 

 

“Actually i dont see him running around asking people to worship him. He is a clever person though. It is rather common to name certain effects or laws after the person who found them or proposed them. Like "Bolzmann constant",  "Newtons laws", "Hubble constant" etc.  I dont know if he proposed the name.”

 

 

In relation to your last point….. Did those ‘forces’ exist, before the men who discovered them?

 

 

If the men who discovered them are clever, how clever is the Force that created them in the first place?

 

 

So who gives then the right to claim credit for a force, when they had no part in creating it?

 

 

 

Wasalaam

nadir

 

I have edited the colour of Deist’s quotes only, and not any of the words I wrote, Allah (SWT) knows why I have done this.  

sorry forgive my grammer, i have edited my quotes of Deist only, and not the words i have wrote, Allah (SWT) knows best.

oooppps... I have only edited the colour of my quotes, of Deist, and not any of the words I have written, Allah (SWT) knows best.

Could get lost in the English language! Hope I get the chance to fully comprehend Arabic, Insha Allah



Edited by nadir
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Alwardah
 
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Quote Alwardah Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2005 at 9:15am
Originally posted by deist

What  i often have a problem is that often enough people want to "proove" their belief by making the very statements that show that their belief is not based on facts but on wishes and "intuition".


 

Alhamdulillah (All Praises are to Allah) You have a problem with that, I don't.

Why should I worry about the possible truth about my existence being "unimportant" when I know that all creations are important, not only me.

You mean when you "believe" that ...

 

Wrong not "when" all the time

 

 

Al-Qur'an - Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51: 56

 

"I have created Jinn and men, that they may worship Me Only."

 

I don't need any more proof than that

 

“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2005 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by nadir

 

I have already told you that I can scientifically prove what I claim (there is only One Ilah [God] – Allah), proof I have not shown you. I am though (through confidence in what I know) able to challenge you, because I know you are unable to prove that there is no God, whether your proof is scientific, or moral.

 

How can anyone disprove your proof when you don't lay them out, all you do is make claims and claiming you have proof.

Stop saying to people that they can't disprove you when you don't put your evidence of proof of your claims. If you have none them it is just a claim!

So you mention that you have sciencific proof of your claim, then show it.

 

I have approached you stating I have proof (of One Ilah), & yet you continue to deny my words (Islam, is the religion Of Allah, the One, & Only God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe), despite not having the tiniest amount of evidence saying otherwise. Hence please do not use these means to disagree (& disrespect Alwardah), when you, yourself are guiltier of what you state, than she.

 

So you state you have proof  -  of one God, so where is your proof that there is one God, if you don't bring anything across then is it not just a claim that you believe that there is one God or there is a God ?

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2005 at 4:52am

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

 

Angel, your comments make me very angry…..

 

 

 

I am unable to show you any proof (of the unity between the energy forces, & gravity [general relativity]), over the Internet, because not only does the explanation require ‘diagrams’ to illustrate, but also in depth explanation, to overcome the false perceptions that have been implanted in peoples minds.

 

I have openly invited anyone to come to me, in person and challenge what I know, that’s why I have approached all the international embassies (& scientific journals) I mentioned previously. Not one person has done so….. and yet you have the ignorant cheek to come and question me!!!!! 

 

I am sending this post directly as a complaint to Islamicity, as well as some of the embassies I have previously contacted…….

 

 

I am disgusted with the way I have been treated by Muslim’s & non-Muslims alike, just because I have discovered something (and have the proof to back it up!) that questions their own version of reality.

 

If this is how I am going to be treated, then you can take your selfish false world, and back off from me!!!!! You have made my life so unbearable, death is the most attractive thing to me….. so if you refuse to challenge me, please come and kill me, because there is nothing else here for me.

 

You will find the doubt belongs to you, seen as though you have no proof!!!!!!!

 

 

You can not even imagine my frustration with your ignorant, selfish, greed.

 

 

 

Is this going to be my last correspondence, or I am finally going to receive a little respect!

 

 

    

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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2005 at 8:39am

WOW!  

Originally posted by nadir

Angel, your comments make me very angry…..

 

I'm sitting here trying to think of something to say but don't know what to say, you have somewhat disturbed me and shocked at the things you say towards me.    but I'll try and say something.

 

I am unable to show you any proof (of the unity between the energy forces, & gravity [general relativity]), over the Internet, because not only does the explanation require ‘diagrams’ to illustrate, but also in depth explanation, to overcome the false perceptions that have been implanted in peoples minds.

 

The internet, hasn't exactly stopped other people, but if you have trouble doing so, then I accept.

I have openly invited anyone to come to me, in person and challenge what I know, that’s why I have approached all the international embassies (& scientific journals) I mentioned previously. Not one person has done so….. and yet you have the ignorant cheek to come and question me!!!!! 

 

I have a right to question things and people.

I am sending this post directly as a complaint to Islamicity, as well as some of the embassies I have previously contacted…….

 

Why ??

What are the embassies going to do ?

I am disgusted with the way I have been treated by Muslim’s & non-Muslims alike, just because I have discovered something (and have the proof to back it up!) that questions their own version of reality.

 

I'm not exactly against that.

I haven't treated you badly, I don't think I have.

If this is how I am going to be treated, then you can take your selfish false world, and back off from me!!!!! You have made my life so unbearable, death is the most attractive thing to me….. so if you refuse to challenge me, please come and kill me, because there is nothing else here for me.

 

 

How can I or anyone challenge you when I haven't got your proof/evidence to do so? 

All I have is your word your claim and that alone is not enough or nil to challenge you.

You want people to challenge so badly, and your invitation ignored that I think its starting to affect you because you should not have gotten angry over my post, I believe.

I haven't actually disproven you or approve of your findings which I do not know what they are. All I know is that you say you have found something, that is all I know from you! What am I suppose to do with that ?, for me its just a claim. 

You will find the doubt belongs to you, seen as though you have no proof!!!!!!!

 

What doubt? I'm neither here nor there with it.

How can you say that I have no proof ??

Have I made a claim? have I disagreed or agreed with you ?

Have I put something forth other than mentioning what you say here is just a claim, without your evidence ?

You can not even imagine my frustration with your ignorant, selfish, greed.

 

I don't know, perhaps I am but I doubt it.

Your frustration is with something else, namely that no one will challenge you.

Is this going to be my last correspondence, or I am finally going to receive a little respect!

 

    

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2005 at 11:31am

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who know nothing of these forces?

 

How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who run & hide from me, because they are selfish, greedy, & manipulative, and wish to remain so?

 

How can I explain something more complex than the forces of; electro magnetism, nuclear, atom glue, & gravity (general relativity), to people who think they already (scientifically) know these forces, but do not (they only know the erroneous ways of the people they follow), as if they did, they would know they are One Force - Allah (SWT)?

 

 

 

 

Angel said: “What doubt?”

Does Allah (SWT) exist or not? Bring me proof, if you have no doubt!

 

Nausheen said: “He works on supercritical carbon dioxide.... have u got any idea?”

What is the motivation of this question? The science of ‘Supercritical’ (carbon dioxide) comes under the category of the energy forces. Scientists are unable to unify these forces with gravity (general relativity).   

 

Nausheen said: “but pls dont give us threats. We care for you - so no jumping off from anywhere (u can try banji jumping, there is no harm in that).”

 

You continue to disrespect me!!!!! Please tell me where in my comments I have made any threat?

 

You have made my life so unbearable, death is the most attractive thing to me….. so if you refuse to challenge me, please come and kill me, because there is nothing else here for me.”

 

This statement (& most of the others) were directed toward the Saudi’s, Iranian’s, Chinese, & Russians (also the masons), who continue to ignore me. They have made my life a misery through their selfish greed, & haughty imperialist attitudes. I want them to come and kill me, because they can’t come & prove me wrong, and hence they have left me in limbo.

 

Through their denial of me, they illustrate their real motivation (ie they do not care for anyone except their selves).

 

 

 

So here I am, disrespected (& treated like an ignoramus) by people with secular values (& scientists alike), for challenging their false (scientific) perceptions…..

 

So here I am, disrespected (& treated like an ignoramus) by Muslim’s, who deem that I cannot possibly know anything unless I know Arabic (as well as other matters)…..

 

 

Please tell me where I am expected to find the motivation to like (or even talk to) any of these groups, when they treat me like this???????

 

 

I would like an answer from the chief of Islamicity!

 

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