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unity1
 
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Quote unity1 Replybullet Topic: Concept of Creation VS Chance
    Posted: 22 April 2005 at 5:26am

Asalam Aalaikum

Dear Brothers

I have started this topic inorder to have a dialog on it because it is one of the most interesting and hot topics of this age.

"Atheism" which can be defined as a philosophy completely based on irreligious and scientific theories.

According to their understanding and knowledge ,this entire world including our Universe is a product of chance and they donot support the concept of creation since they believe that Science supports their materialistic theories from every angle.

Lets have a discussion on this topic and see whether Science truely supports the concept of creation or not?

I would appreciate if any atheist would join this discussion.

Regards,

who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2005 at 5:39am
I like evolution myself
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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fezziwig
 
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Quote fezziwig Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2005 at 10:17am

I think some of your points are disputable:

Originally posted by unity1


"Atheism" which can be defined as a philosophy completely based on irreligious and scientific theories.

Technically, atheism is just a belief that there is no god. May have nothing to do with believing in 'chance' or 'determinism'. May also have nothing to do with 'irreligious' either, as one might conclude from the bad behaviour of some religious people: they must not believe there really IS a god to punish them, therefore they are religious and atheist!


According to their understanding and knowledge ,this entire world including our Universe is a product of chance...

Chance is not intrinsically linked to atheism. It's not a valid dichotomy to say god vs. chance. One could be an atheist and not believe in chance.

... and they donot support the concept of creation since they believe that Science supports their materialistic theories from every angle.

Science and creation are not mutually exclusive beliefs. Yesterday I was reading about a scientist at NASA who is an avid supporter of creationism.

Lets have a discussion on this topic and see whether Science truely supports the concept of creation or not? 

I think there is widespread misunderstanding about what 'chance' is and what 'science' is. I've discussed chance before on IC so I'll just say this about science: science is an exploration method with few fixed beliefs. As soon as a theory is espoused by a scientist then other scientists set about (gleefully!) to disprove the theory, or find it's limits. All the theories are hypotheses, that is, temporary beliefs. Working beliefs. One follows that hypothesis until it asserts something that cannot be true, then you know the original hypothesis was wrong (modus ponens).

Science hypotheses must explain what we already know, and predict things we don't know yet. For example, 'evolution' does explain permutation and development of organisms, and it does predict some things about the future, such as evolution of 'anti-biotic' immune bacterias. Or the prediction of the moth, by Darwin 150 years ago, to pollinate the Comet Orchid (which was just recently identified).

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unity1
 
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Quote unity1 Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 4:49am
Comments on the post of Fezziwig

You Said:
Technically, atheism is just a belief that there is no god. May have nothing to do with believing in 'chance' or 'determinism'. May also have nothing to do with 'irreligious' either, as one might conclude from the bad behaviour of some religious people: they must not believe there really IS a god to punish them, therefore they are religious and atheist!

My Comment:
Atheism is no doubt a belief that their is no Supreme Creator but it is also a philosophy based on the concept of materialism which is contrary to the concept of creation. If Atheists according to your opinion donot believe in chance then on which concept do they believe? Is their any other alternative of chance to which atheists can hold as their belief?




You said:
Chance is not intrinsically linked to atheism. It's not a valid dichotomy to say god vs. chance. One could be an atheist and not believe in chance.

My Comment:
This is just like saying that a person can be a Christian and not believe in the doctrine of Trinity.
If Atheism is a belief then what is the basis of their belief that their is no God?





You Said:
Science and creation are not mutually exclusive beliefs. Yesterday I was reading about a scientist at NASA who is an avid supporter of creationism.

My Comment:
Science is actually a study which is based on observation and experimental investigation and creation of God is the most appropriate object on which Science can be applied but it doesnot mean that both are similar. Just as pen and paper have relation with each other but it doesnot mean that both pen and paper are similar, just as pen is used on the paper in the similar way Science is applied on the creation of God.
The Scientists to whom you are refering to must be a non-atheist ,a Christian or a Jew since Atheist Scientists never support concept of creation.
NASA is an Space Agency which doesnot only have Atheist Scientists and professionals working their ,but also those Scientists who believe in God.
Actually you have misunderstood me, I never meant to say that Science doesnot support concept of creation,what I told you was about the perticular understanding and belief of Atheists who hold that Science doesnot support Concept of Creation.




You Said
I think there is widespread misunderstanding about what 'chance' is and what 'science' is. I've discussed chance before on IC so I'll just say this about science: science is an exploration method with few fixed beliefs. As soon as a theory is espoused by a scientist then other scientists set about (gleefully!) to disprove the theory, or find it's limits. All the theories are hypotheses, that is, temporary beliefs. Working beliefs. One follows that hypothesis until it asserts something that cannot be true, then you know the original hypothesis was wrong (modus ponens).

Science hypotheses must explain what we already know, and predict things we don't know yet. For example, 'evolution' does explain permutation and development of organisms, and it does predict some things about the future, such as evolution of 'anti-biotic' immune bacterias. Or the prediction of the moth, by Darwin 150 years ago, to pollinate the Comet Orchid (which was just recently identified).

My Comment:
We all know that chance and science are two different concepts but what I meant to say was that Atheists have merged chance with science inorder to destroy the truth of creation.

Any way thanks for providing such a useful information.

I hope our discussion continues.

Regards,



Edited by unity1

who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.
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fezziwig
 
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Quote fezziwig Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by unity1

Comments on the post of Fezziwig
...

My Comment:
Atheism is no doubt a belief that their is no Supreme Creator but it is also a philosophy based on the concept of materialism...

Says who? Are Atheists sufficiently well organized that one can attribute materialism to all of them? What atheist leader has enunciated this position? Or are you, a non-atheist, attributing this? I just don't think the atheists are that well organized, or even interested, to say that. I think you are attributing this to them for your own purposes..


... which is contrary to the concept of creation.

Materialism is not contradictory to creation. The creator, after all, created a 'material' universe.


... If Atheists according to your opinion donot believe in chance then on which concept do they believe?


'Chance' is not the ONLY alternative to creation. Think about it.

 Is their any other alternative of chance to which atheists can hold as their belief?


Sure. Years ago the 'clockwork universe' was postulated as an alternative to chance. In which the universe operated like the inside of a watch, with all the gears and springs and escapements, which might look like a chaotic mess, but which produced a regular clock movement.

My Comment:
...If Atheism is a belief then what is the basis of their belief that their is no God?



Atheism is not a belief but a disbelief, that is, an unwillingness to embrace a proposed belief. I don't think that if a Princess kisses a frog that it will turn into a handsome prince, but I don't have to contrive an explanation for my disbelief. I don't have to prove with argument and calculation and data that it's not possible for a frog to turn into a prince. Rather, the burden of proof is on the other side.
 


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Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2005 at 3:51pm

Originally posted by unity1



"Atheism" which can be defined as a philosophy completely based on irreligious and scientific theories.

According to their understanding and knowledge ,this entire world including our Universe is a product of chance and they donot support the concept of creation since they believe that Science supports their materialistic theories from every angle.

Lets have a discussion on this topic and see whether Science truely supports the concept of creation or not?



Regards,

Assalaamu Alaikum

 

I like the point you have made Unity1

 

I have no doubt that atheists (& alike) are way off course with their scientific thought patterns.

 

Much of the scientific research carried out, is bound by the scientists need to acquire grants/funding, this funding is often only given if the research has the potential to create a profit making product (such as in medical science). In this instance it is corporate wealth that drives science, and not the human trait of curiosity (with regards to wanting to discover the Magnificence of Allah’s [SWT] Creation).

 

 

“…..they believe that science supports their materialistic theories from every angle.”

 

I must admit they do spin quite a convincing web of illusion, with regards to trying to explain every aspect of creation, via scientific means. However if a (wise) person looks closely enough, they will find that their explanations crumble at every juncture.

 

The competition at the head of the ‘technological rat race’, requires science to gloss over its many failings, this is done for the sake of ‘intellectual pride’ (atheism). Intellectual pride knows nothing of - moral obligation.

 

Please let me know your thoughts Unity1

 

 

Alhamdulilah

 

 

 

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Quote deist Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2005 at 3:33am
There is more than just "chance"  versus "creation".
Actually the term "chance" is wrong in that context because every scientist will tell you that there are natural laws according to which things happen.
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Quote Alwardah Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2005 at 12:53pm

As Salamu Alaikum  

 

Allah tells us in Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51: 56 "I have created Jinn and men, that they may worship Me Only."

 

If we believe in chance then no purpose in worshiping Allah, because there is no God, no accountability, no punishment, no reward, no paradise and no hell, there is no purpose in life.

 

Darwin's theory of evolution is regarded as the greatest support for atheism.

 

It was religion that showed man the way to know Allah and it was scientific facts in the Glorious Qur'an that led the early Muslim to study science. Religion first then science. Until a few centuries ago science was used to prove the existence of God, it was only in the last few centuries, 18th or 19th the role of science was reversed.

 

Modern day scientists are now proving that there is a God, A Supreme Creator.

 

Are we here by chance – NO Chance.

 

Salams

“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
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