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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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s666
 
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Quote s666 Replybullet Posted: 07 September 2006 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Angela

Free will was the greatest gift that our Lord God gave us.  The freedom to choose right from wrong and to submit or rebel.



exactly
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 5:30am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

I knew you are going to bring up ministers in this , Well if you believe in the supreme authority then why would that supreme authority need help? An authority which is supreme is more than capable of carrying out all the works. Now in the case of choosing angels alaihimus salaam to send messages to His Human Messengers alaihimus salaam , and then these human messengers to convey the message to common folks. Yes Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala could have had a direct way but this was most perfect and He is Most Mercifull and choose the easiest way. But we dont call them the Gods who share some of His powers, they are slaves and creation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala like every1 else. The only exception is they got chosen for a purpose.

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala sent us in this world to see who follows His path in all the conditions. Now many a things which human mind may take as miseries are not just that. Among them is poverty, illness, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala puts His slave through this to see who is patient enough to remember Him in this state and not take this as punishment. Same way we are been told that health, wealth, children and many other things which we see as blessing might prove otherwise for us. Because it is human nature to indulge in pleasure and forget about the Lord who granted you these. So for me if my health and wealth makes me forget Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala then the illness which makes me mindfull of my Lord is better. Now other miseries like war and things like that they are created by us.

S666 wrote, einstein simply put it, "God does not play dice".  if a person gambles, he does it with whole of his consciousness and with full awareness that he will lose money or win it.
So according to your theory, when a person kills why would you punish them?

S666 wrote, what about tribute?  what about prizes? what about gifts?
What about them?

Now all the concepts of reformatories, understanding instead of fear. You must not have come across a creature called humans in your life then. If you see stats of any country, most people who come out of jail go on to harder crime then the reason of their first entry to jail. And dont even get me started on ruling with love, America is where it is because we all love it, is it? Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala knows perfectly how human mind works so He gave us laws which would make a society peacefull if applied in its true essence.

Well like before you taking 2 and 2 coming out with God knows what with this thief thing. All i was telling you full picture that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not banish this person completely but He makes a way for him.

And there was no need for your last simple question if you read my last paragraph properly. It is one of responsibility of a muslim ruler to make sure words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala reaches every where. One simple thing if you ever read history without bias that whenever muslim armies went some where they gave the options to ruler to embrace islam or give the power to muslims and no one will be hurt. In the cases where this happened muslims ruled that place justly without forcing any1 to convert. In most of history books, the priest and rabis have wrote that they prefered muslim rulers rather than other sects of christians. Because muslim rulers gave them freedom of pracitising their religion. The example of spain you gave is best one for me as after hundreds of years of muslim rule majority was still christians. Another concept of being a good muslim ruler is giving the help to opressed muslims and i am sure your history will give you the exact same reason for muslims entering subcontinent.

Now lastly S666 wrote, dear sister, it is your belief.  i stress it.  it is a belief.

Well for me islam is not only a faith and belief system but a proven fact, the day anybody can prove Holy Quran wrong (you would see sun rising from west but not this) that day you can make it just a belief.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 5:32am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi angela, Hope you dont mind but this is not a section for discussion on different belief systems. It is for non-muslims who want to know some thing of islam. If you want to take part in this discussion and S666 dont mind then we can move the thread in interfaith section.

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Quote anon123 Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 6:36pm
I have been following the forum and saw some interesting points being made. Here is another question that confuses me.

According to the Islamic belief system, it is said that Christianity and Judasm also had the same teachings as Islam originally but were corrupted over time. Perhaps that could also be applied to other religions such as Budhism and Hinduism.

Muslims believe that Quran has not been corrupted and God has promised to keep the originality since God possesses all the power to do so. If that is the case then why didn't God send one and only one prophet and prevented his words from being corrupted? Why didn't he keep the old testiment in its original form?
Wouldn't that make things a lot more simpler and avoid conflicts? What is the muslim belief for that.

If there was one and only one religion, then atleast we would have one less thing to worry about; religious conflicts.
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s666
 
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Quote s666 Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by fatima

It is one of responsibility of a muslim ruler to make sure words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala reaches every where.


as i have said sister, this will end the discussion.  but whatever i say is not to offend you or any other person of any community.  and if you feel this post to be inappropriate, then its upto you to delete it or edit it.  but i like to be as comprehensive as i can regarding this issue.

1. How do you know that Muhammad is a Prophet?
2. How do you know that Allah contacted Muhammad through Gabriel?
3. How do you know that the present Quran is exactly the same as Muhammad has said it? (considering it was compiled only after hundred years of his death, i mean to say that the very verse which says that Quran will be protected by Allah would have been changed during compilation)
4. Finally, how do you know that there exists a supreme being called God or Allah or Brahman?


Originally posted by fatima

I knew you are going to bring up ministers in this , Well if you believe in the supreme authority then why would that supreme authority need help? An authority which is supreme is more than capable of carrying out all the works. Now in the case of choosing angels alaihimus salaam to send messages to His Human Messengers alaihimus salaam , and then these human messengers to convey the message to common folks. Yes Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala could have had a direct way but this was most perfect and He is Most Mercifull and choose the easiest way.


you say it is the easiest way, but is anything hard for Allah?

Originally posted by fatima

But we dont call them the Gods who share some of His powers, they are slaves and creation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala like every1 else. The only exception is they got chosen for a purpose.


sister, regarding hinduism, its a different issue altogether.  it takes a lot to explain about 'gods'.  but its simple to say that the difference is in the language.  'god' is an english word.  and its not obligatory to 'worship' idols.  even if you take a look at hindu holy book gita, nowhere you find about worshipping idols or polytheism.  gita is more about proper thinking and living.  gita tells us to respect choice.

i would like to give a simple example regarding 'gods' in hinduism.  there are temples of mahatma gandhi, amitabh bachchan, shah rukh khan etc. do you mean to say they are worth worshipping?

Originally posted by fatima

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala sent us in this world to see who follows His path in all the conditions.


dear sister, why would Allah want to test us?  He/She/It is all powerful and all knowing then what for is the test?

Originally posted by fatima

So according to your theory, when a person kills why would you punish them?


sister, we are no one to punish a person.  the best thing is to counsel that person or send him to an asylum or a reformatory.

Originally posted by fatima

Now all the concepts of reformatories, understanding instead of fear. You must not have come across a creature called humans in your life then. If you see stats of any country, most people who come out of jail go on to harder crime then the reason of their first entry to jail. And dont even get me started on ruling with love, America is where it is because we all love it, is it?


for this you yourself have answered.  "Now other miseries like war and things like that they are created by us."

sister, we have choice and free will.  its upto us to use a knife to cut vegetables or to kill someone.

Originally posted by fatima

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala knows perfectly how human mind works so He gave us laws which would make a society peacefull if applied in its true essence.


yes Allah knows perfectly how human mind works.  Allah also knows what we exactly do at a given place and at a given time.  Allah knows, when He/She/It created us, that some of us will disobey Him/Her/It.  Allah knows exactly who will disobey Him/Her/It.  then what is this test? what is the purpose of it? why to create a person who disobeys Him/Her/It? then why to judge that person and then punish that person?

Originally posted by fatima

One simple thing if you ever read history without bias that whenever muslim armies went some where they gave the options to ruler to embrace islam or give the power to muslims and no one will be hurt.


what?  is there anything called peaceful war?  so you mean to say muslim armies entered other territories without killing anyone?  to propagate the word of Allah is it obligatory to kill soldiers (aren't soldiers human)?  can't they send missionaries?  do they have to send armies?

Originally posted by fatima

Another concept of being a good muslim ruler is giving the help to opressed muslims and i am sure your history will give you the exact same reason for muslims entering subcontinent.


what do you mean to say?  how can someone 'opress' someone who do not exist?
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s666
 
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Quote s666 Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2006 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by fatima

If you want to take part in this discussion and S666 dont mind then we can move the thread in interfaith section.



its so nice of you to consult sister.  please do whatever you feel appropriate.
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2006 at 5:14am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, I dont think any1 minds a question when questioner is observing good manners and to learn about some thing, obviously you need to question, so no worries. When i see bit rudeness from you i will tell you and i am sure it wont come to that.

Now going back to the topic, Hope you dont take it as offense but i think you need to polish your history regarding muslims . The first military convoy to subcontinent was sent in command of Muhammad bin Qasim and it was in reply to a letter of a prisoned girl. Your question about why preachers were not sent instead of armies, then yes preachers were sent in many cases who were brutaly killed. Interesting enough mojority of them were sent on request of those people who betrayed the trust of muslims later on by killing those preachers.

Now just want to mention this as well that where ever muslims went, that part of the world got enriched with best technology, education and cultural stuff there was at time. Every body recognises that science and technology came to west through muslims. Muslims made sure that they provide best for all regardless of their religion. Now compare this to what happened when a non-muslim took over the country. First thing they do is kill the governing people, second thing is kill the intellectuals and their facilities. I am not sure whether you come across the article or not but there was this two page story on how america in this day and age made sure that every intellectual in Iraq ends exactly like its first generation when tatars invaded this land.

About your views on counseling the killers and not punishing them, only one thing read more about serial killers or read the stories of people whose loved ones are taken away. I am sure you will come to realize the reality.

I think we already had long and hard discussions about the fact that if Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala knew this person is going to disobey why He created him, why the test when He is all-knowing. There are ninety nine names of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that us common beings know of. They are the attributes of our dear Lord, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is best in all those without the other getting effected. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is All Knowing but at same time He is Most Just Judge. A Just ruler can not punish the person without the crime even though through His complete knowledge He is aware that this person is going to commit the crime. Before creation of Human beings, devil was one of very obedient slave but with reason of gaining power in earth not solely for pleasure of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Creation of Humans made obvious and apparent what the devil was hiding.

Now about only creating the obedient slaves to save the disobedient from the misery. Well if only good ones were let to live then every one who was on earth would have known their end. There was no point of earthly life, how would humans know the bounties and Mercy of our Lord. If there was no worldy life then paradise is no reward and all this would not make much sense and have not much purpose and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not create any thing without a purpose.

Now why so many messengers, well He sent messengers alaihimus salaam to each nation so no one can have an excuse of message not reaching to him. Now how these messages get corrupted is  work of shaytan. He asked permission to lure humans to wrongdoing and permission was granted. Successive messengers is also a piece of test puzzle, it is hard for self to give up some thing dear even though it might have gone old and not quite usefull so Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wants to see our reaction and wants us to act for His sake alone. But major part of successive messenger is not a test but His mercy, as out of His complete wisdom He allowed devil to do his dirty work for some time, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala made sure that right and pure message reaches to human through new messengers alaihimus salaam.

You mentioned in one of your previous posts that how we have limited understanding as we are humans and cannot completely comprehend the works of our Lord. So this question of why test? could be only answered to the extent of our intelect and understanding and thats best of my understanding and I can not go beyond that. This brings me to your first question that how do i know about the existance of a supereme being. This is how, I see the vastness of my surrounding, could comprehend some of the wisdom but most is a question so my limitation but the limitless bounties tell me that there is a limitless Creator who created things i can not even think and understand about. And yes you said it absolutely right every thing is easy for creator of all because all He has to say is 'be' and 'it is'. But out of His Mercy, He makes things easy for humans to understand.

Lastly to your first question, first a clarification of a misunderstanding, Holy Quran was not compiled hundered years after Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam went to his Lord. In his life time, he had told the formal writers of Holy Quran about which part goes where and it was on pieces in writing but was not in the form of a book. Now in the time of first caliph abubakr (ra), within the two years of departure of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam, Holy Quran was compiled in the form of a Book. Even if it was not, there were hundered and hundered of companions who memorized all of the Holy Quran, there were also many who memorised parts. So even the stingiest critics can not say much about the authenticity and compilation of Holy Quran because there is so much continuity that even a difference of a fatah or qasrah is noticed. Even today there are places where kids never get to see a writen copy but learn Holy Quran through their teachers. Now very regularly in muslim world there are competitions held for best recitations and most of people participating learn Holy Quran by heart and no one has ever noticed a difference in another. I have CDs of reciters from across the world and never noticed any thing different.

This accuracy in preserving the book and then the advancement in science has made me certain in the authenticity of Holy Quran. When i am certain that Holy Quran is a divine book then i also get certain that I have One Lord, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, that he sent different messengers in different times and last of them was Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam and that prime messenger between him and his Lord was Gibrail alaihis salaam.

Wassalam



Edited by fatima
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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s666
 
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Quote s666 Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2006 at 8:35am
Originally posted by fatima

The first military convoy to subcontinent was sent in command of Muhammad bin Qasim and it was in reply to a letter of a prisoned girl. Your question about why preachers were not sent instead of armies, then yes preachers were sent in many cases who were brutaly killed. Interesting enough mojority of them were sent on request of those people who betrayed the trust of muslims later on by killing those preachers.


dear sister, indian civilization has been the most tolerant civilzation though we had skirmishes with local populations.  you find here parsis, syrian  christians and jews.  most of them are influential even now.  we even have the first largest bahai population.  just look at it, if the girl was prisoned and if anything would have happened as you think then how would the letter have reached qasim.  and considering such a thing had really happened, then the war would have stopped when the king in question had been defeated instead of spreading the entire country, isn't it sister?

yet we do not consider muslim conquests as something bad in our history.  and above all we do not relate much to religion(there is no word equivalent to 'religion' in any of the indian languages).  there were many wars even among the local kingdoms.

Originally posted by fatima

Now just want to mention this as well that where ever muslims went, that part of the world got enriched with best technology, education and cultural stuff there was at time. Every body recognises that science and technology came to west through muslims.


but technology was already well developed in this part of the world before those conquests.  just look at greek and egyptian history.  in fact the numerals are called indo-arabic numerals, aren't they?  before arabs came here we had the best sea-faring community and after the conquest the voyages were only sent to mecca. (in fact the word 'navy' comes from sanskrit word 'nav')

actually, what we call history is just what we agree upon.  there is a lot of difference between history noted by muslims and indians.  but we do not have anything against any civilization.  in fact great thinkers like swami vivekananda blame indians for their introvert nature.

Originally posted by fatima

I am not sure whether you come across the article or not but there was this two page story on how america in this day and age made sure that every intellectual in Iraq ends exactly like its first generation when tatars invaded this land.


sister fatima, i do not blame america for such things.  as you said, "It is one of responsibility of a muslim ruler to make sure words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala reaches every where."  similarly, americans think that democracy is the best form of government and so democracy should prevail.  thats why they meddle everywhere.

Originally posted by fatima

About your views on counseling the killers and not punishing them, only one thing read more about serial killers or read the stories of people whose loved ones are taken away. I am sure you will come to realize the reality.

sister fatima, believe me, it takes a lot to forgive.  i know how one feels when a loved one gets killed.  but i cannot hold on to that anger and avenge it.  'Lord' is an ancient word which means 'Law'.  Lord will look after it.  haven't you read about forgiveness episodes in Quran?  punishing is upto Lord.  the best thing we can do is helping.  To err is human, to forgive divine.



dear sister, whatever you have said, thank you for it.  but yet, how do you know that Allah exists and Muhammad is His/Her/It's messenger?
if you say authenticity is the factor (This accuracy in preserving the book and then the advancement in science has made me certain in the authenticity of Holy Quran.)  i can say for sure that protection of a book cannot be yardstick for its godliness.

sister fatima, beliefs are just postulates until they are proved.  to prove Quran to be true, one has to prove the judgement day to be true.

other religions have their own postulates which are equally hard to prove.

one cannot say a certain religion to be a true religion because religion is not based on facts but based on beliefs.  one cannot compare beliefs until they are proven to be facts.

COGITO ERGO SUM.

dear sister, you said, "It is one of responsibility of a muslim ruler to make sure words of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala reaches every where."  but how can one convince that Quran is Allah's word?
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