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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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anon123
 
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Quote anon123 Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2006 at 2:41pm
Hello Fatima,
You took the word right out of my mouth. Puzzle. Why would God want to puzzle his creation by sending over a hundred thousand prophets to every nation and let devil (or Shayatan) corrupt them each and everytime except the last time when he sent his last prophet?
Earning heaven should be based on morals and good deeds rather than solving a puzzle. Even if you follow one particular religion, there are still 100 different puzzle pieces in it, sects (I prefer to call them subreligions). Every religious scholar I talk to would in the end tell me to "Read the holy book". Be it Chirstianity or Islam. I've read the books and they are definately beautiful but I still don't get the answers to the questions I have been asking in this forum.
Whenever I start an argument, I try to keep it friendly and informative so if I said something offensive, I apologize for it.
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anon123
 
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Quote anon123 Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2006 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by s666

(This accuracy in preserving the book and then the advancement in science has made me certain in the authenticity of Holy Quran.) i can say for sure that protection of a book cannot be yardstick for its godliness.sister fatima, beliefs are just postulates until they are proved. to prove Quran to be true, one has to prove the judgement day to be true.other religions have their own postulates which are equally hard to prove.one cannot say a certain religion to be a true religion because religion is not based on facts but based on beliefs.



What you said is very appealing and boggles the mind even more when you think about the question of religion. Perfection cannot be used as a yardstick to measure Godliness. This keyboard seems to be working perfectly, although that doesn't justify that it was made by God.
Also, Religion is based on a blind belief that what the religion teaches is a fact. The two terms go hand in hand when they are used to describe religion.
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 11 September 2006 at 3:25am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Well i will try my best to explain what i meant in the line that got attention from both of you brothers(i assume).

Holy Quran was revealed over 1400 years ago, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala challenged the disbelievers in various parts. For instance,

[Shakir 11:13] Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.
[Shakir 10:37-38] And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. Or do they say: He has forged it? Say: Then bring a chapter like this and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.
[Shakir 2:23-24] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.

Ever since the Holy Quran was revealed, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like that of Holy Quran which matches its beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislations and informations, true prophecy and many other perfect attributes. Note that smallest chapter of Holy Quran is only three verses and have ten words.

Holy Quran also foretold some of the events of the future among which was victory of the romans over the persians within three to nine years of thier defeat. [Shakir 30:2-4] The Romans are vanquished, In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome, Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice.

The word used for 'a few years' is bedd which in arabic is taken as time period between 3-9 years and history tells you that it was very hard to imagine that romans would be victorious again seeing the sort of defeat they took.

Hope you have bit of time to explore this website, http://www.jalyat.net/. This will sort of explain to you what is the connection between scientific advancement and authenticity of Holy Quran. Once you have read some material on this site then inshaAllah we will have further chat.

And please dont worry, no one gets offended when some one asks questions about Islam thats how you learn about reality of some thing. We are more than happy to explain in our limited capacity, hoping inshaAllah it will suffice.

Wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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s666
 
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Quote s666 Replybullet Posted: 11 September 2006 at 5:36am
Originally posted by fatima

And please dont worry, no one gets offended when some one asks questions about Islam thats how you learn about reality of some thing. We are more than happy to explain in our limited capacity, hoping inshaAllah it will suffice.


thank you again sister.

Originally posted by fatima

Ever since the Holy Quran was revealed, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like that of Holy Quran which matches its beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislations and informations, true prophecy and many other perfect attributes. Note that smallest chapter of Holy Quran is only three verses and have ten words.


sister fatima, there are many languages in this universe and there are many epics, poetry etc. in those languages.  and most of the Quran is not understood by muslims themselves.  Different scholars have their own opinion.
and if something was produced as Quran wouldn't it be plagiarism?

Originally posted by fatima

Hope you have bit of time to explore this website, http://www.jalyat.net/. This will sort of explain to you what is the connection between scientific advancement and authenticity of Holy Quran.
Once you have read some material on this site then inshaAllah we will have further chat.


i have had time to read about science in Quran.  the website was really nice.  but i still feel some of the explanations were not comprehensive.  i feel them to be attached explanations.  most of the verses in Quran are open in the sense that we can take whatever the meaning we want from a particular verse.

for example, consider these...

078.006
YUSUFALI: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
PICKTHAL: Have We not made the earth an expanse,
SHAKIR: Have We not made the earth an even expanse?

079.030
YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,
SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.

according to these verses, the earth is flat.  but some scholars say, regarding the verse 079.030 that earth is egg shaped because, the word dahaha is used.

so, if earth was flat one can use the same verses to say that earth is flat.

this is what i mean when i say the verses are open.

and most important, scholars sometimes isolate the verses and integrate the verses some other times.

for example...

036.036
YUSUFALI: Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!
SHAKIR: Glory be to Him Who created pairs of all things, of what the earth grows, and of their kind and of what they do not know.

036.037
YUSUFALI: And a Sign for them is the Night: We withdraw therefrom the Day, and behold they are plunged in darkness;
PICKTHAL: A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness.
SHAKIR: And a sign to them is the night: We draw forth from it the day, then lo! they are in the dark;

036.038
YUSUFALI: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
PICKTHAL: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
SHAKIR: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

036.039
YUSUFALI: And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.
PICKTHAL: And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.
SHAKIR: And (as for) the moon, We have ordained for it stages till it becomes again as an old dry palm branch.

the verse 036:038 is regarding turn of day into night.  but in http://www.jalyat.net/ , the verse 036:038 has been isolated and is said to be regarding the solar apex.  but the scholar did not consider the movement of the milky way and its collision with andromeda.

then how can we convince someone that Quran is the word of Allah and Muhammad is His/Her/It's Prophet?
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2006 at 5:25am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, regarding producing likes of Holy Quran, it was a challenge as arabs of that time was master in language and poetry. They produced works which were sweet to hear and most elequent of speeches. It was a known factor about Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam that he never had no formal schooling and was never heard of reciting poetry. Some thing so elequent coming from him was a miracle and sign in itself but those arabs still argued that he makes it himself. So Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala told those people that if you think that a person who is not even master on this language can forge some thing like this then you people whom the world considers master of your language produce some thing alike.

Which ofcourse they could not and there are still many arabic speaking non-muslim who could try but they dont. Now about poetry in other languages and rest of written stuff, why do you think no one claims it to be divine. May be because its not worth it and the writer knows it himslef.

Now there are many verses which mention earth, the two which you picked are very easy to understand if you read the ayah before and after it. The first one from Surah 78, its literal meaning is 'Have we not made earth as a bed' Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is mentioning His bounties and thats why it is mentioned like that. In second ayaah you mentioned, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is mentioning formation of heavens and earth and its expansion in sense of vastness and putting plants and trees and other bounties. The theme then carries on with how Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala put mountain on this expanded earth to stop it swirling here and there.

I will try to find ayaat which literally mean expansion as in flat entity. But same thing you need to take ayaah before and after it to actually realize that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is telling us in the sense of us finding our livelihood, that when we travel thats what we feel and thats it.

Another thing that muslim scholars came out with the concept of earth being round was not from this particular ayaah. It was from ayaat in Surah kahf, which mention a righteous leader traveling through land. Its the last story of that particular surah about Dhulqarnain thats what made them think that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala mentions him going to furthest west and then furthest east without mentioning him having to come back. Thats what promted the thought of earth being a spere, it exact shape was concluded to be an egg due to the 'dhuhaha' used in couple of places in relation to earth.

About the sun and solar apex, you might be right and there is a chance you might be wrong. I have not got detailed knowledge of this particular fact. InshaAllah i will look into it. End of the day Holy Quran is not a book of science, its a book of signs. It gives the complete cycle of pregnancy, it gives complete process of cloud formation and many other thing about 1400 years ago. When these processes were not known to any human being. The concepts that can be derived out of a single or couple of verses could be left out and still it would not reduce its effectiveness.

Hope you dont take it as offense but if you really want to understand Holy Quran then you need to stop taking the verses from those sites which have only one intention. Neither am i saying that believe every thing a muslim says with your eyes closed. Read the explanation of Holy Quran thats how you would know what those ayaat really mean and in what circumstances and in what context they should be taken in.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Quote s666 Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2006 at 8:09am
dear sister fatima,

i think i have gone wayward.  instead of trying to understand i am just asking questions.  and i think i am going off topic.

as you have said, Quran is a book of signs.  it has to be deciphered.

sister, it would be better if you give me an online site where i can find a good translation of Quran in english.

thanks sister for your patience.
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2006 at 2:27pm

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, I think its ok to question as long as they are to gain better understanding. But main thing is that if you seriously seeking the knowledge and truth then you have to explore it yourself.

www.al-islam.org/quran has got three good translations but im not too much of a translation only person. www.tafheem.net is commentary by maulana mawdudi but you can also just read the meaning. I would prefer his work because he does not always write literal meaning but takes into consideration the context and what it means as a whole. But even if you only reading meaning and get stuck at some point, i will be more than happy to hear from you.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Quote s666 Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2006 at 2:09am
thank you sister fatima...
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