Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: None Believer interprets the Quran Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 3 Next >>
Author Message
fogtrik
 
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 11 August 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 53
Quote fogtrik Replybullet Topic: None Believer interprets the Quran
    Posted: 28 August 2006 at 2:35pm

 

Hi folks,

This is the second part of my post about my study of the quran as a true none-believer. You folks see the book as perfect, however I see it from a sceintific point of view. Can you please respond with quran vesus to show that my interpretation is wrong. For example, show me where is states that the sun circles in a galaxy, and the earth orbits the sun and the moon orbits the earth? Because I can't find it in the Quran.

         <My comments are as such>

http://humanists.net/avijit/article/flat_earth_kasem.htm

All quotes are from a pro-islamic site.

http://humanists.net/avijit/article/flat_earth_kasem.htm

 

Allah's Flat Earth and His Cosmos.

 

·        Earth spread out (like a carpet), mountains firm…15:19

[al-Hijr 15:19] And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;

 

·        Allah spread out earth and set mountains standing firm…50: 7

 

<This is wrong because mountains do move thanks to plate tectonics, Muhammad didn’t know about this as proven by this verse>

 

·        God made earth like a carpet spread out…20:53

 [Ta Ha 20:53] "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

 

Allah made the earth a carpet…71:19

 [Nuh 71:19] "'And God has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),

 

<There are two mistakes here. A carpet implies the world is flat (show me where is states is a sphere), it should have said: god made the earth like a mellon but only 100 million times larger. The second error:  not all planets are produced in pairs. Some reproduce asexually>

 

Allah set up mountains firm lest the earth shake…16:15

 [an-Nahl 16:15] And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

 

<This implies that allah made the rivers, but he never, rivers are self organising systems they don’t need a creator. Early man knew nothing of geology time scale, neither did muhammad.>

 

·        Allah set mountains firm for earth not to shake…31:10

 [Luqman 31:10] He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.

 

<Not all animals exist in pairs, simple animals reproduce by asexual reproduction. There is no male- female sponge. Muhammad didn’t know this! A god would have>

 

·        The sun and the moon run its course and Allah regulates all affairs…13:2

 [ar-Ra`d 13:2] God is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)!

 

<god is he who raised the heaven without pillars? This implies that the earth is the center of the universe? Earth is in the arm of a spiral galaxy, one of 100 billion stars in 100 billion galaxies. The sun and moon are not subject to allah’s laws, they are governed by gravity. Muhammad didn’t know that the same gravity pulling an apple also controls the planet. He also didn’t know how fractal the universe is, or that earth wasn’t that important. This is proof of a simple man's POV!>

 

·        Allah made constellations in sky and put lamp (the sun) and a moon giving light…25:61

 [al-Furqan 25:61] Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;

 

<There is no proof in the quran that mudammad knew the earth went around the sun, and the sun went around the galaxy, and the moon went around the earth. Here he thinks the moon has its own light, when really the sun gives it the light. Another simple mistake.>

 

·        Allah has appointed mansions for moon till she returns like an old withered palm leaf…36:39

 [Ya Sin 36:39] And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.

 

<More proof that Muhammad knew nothing about the moon's orbit and where it went after it sank! A smart man in 600 having seen a solar and lunar eclipse could have figured this out. Proof Muhammad was never told much by god>

 

(36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

 

·        The sun's fixed course is underneath Allah's throne…93.528

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:

Narrated Abu Dharr:

I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--

'And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed), ' (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath "Allah's Throne." (Prostration of Sun trees, stars. mentioned in Qur'an and Hadith does not mean like our prostration but it means that these objects are obedient to their Creator (Allah) and they obey for what they have been created for).

 

<the sun is not under allah’s throne? It is really in a galaxy, turning like oil in water, but Muhammad didn’t know this because he didn’t see another galaxy in a telescope, he didn’t know the concept of a galaxy>

 

[as-Sajdah 32:4] It is God Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six Days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?

 

<The Arabs were good with maths. Muhammad could have conceptualised a number like 14 billion. God could have told him 14B, he could have understood. This alone is proof that god never talked to a man, yet muslims twist this to say god’s time is different than our time. Nonsense>

 

 

Show me please more creation versus to put it right? 

 

IP IP Logged
lovetabuleh
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 March 2006
Location: Congo
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 255
Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2006 at 11:28pm

oh man dude, this is where i role my sleeves up for a fine challange!  hahahaha hohohoho hehehehe!!!  jk,jk,jk

no seriously, i've been through this before a couple years back... i had a challange by my evolutionary biology teacher, interpreting misunderstood verses. it was thrilling! my teacher got so involved and surprised of the results about the quran and muslims, he kept telling me to come back for more interesting discussion.   personally i think i've become a pro at these things. 

~~~~

So mister david (fogtrick), lemme get this strait...  (ahem,) you read the quran, interpret it literally and limit it's meanings to the english definition of them arabic words. 

hmmm... first off, do you know anything about the arabic language? 

do you know that one word in arabic could have a number of meanings in english or it's english equivalent might just lightly touch upon the more vast depth of the real meaning in arabic? 

before you read the whole quran, there's an introduction. you know, a preface?  read it. it shows you how one could approach the Quran.

Lemme enlighten you a little by bringing in an excerpt from the Preface: " Before the reader begins to study the Quran, he must realize that unlike all other writings, this is a unique book with a...universal relevance.  It's contents are not confined to a particular theme or style, but contain the foundations for an entire system of life, covering a whole spectrum of issues...These issues are discussed in a variety of ways...Stories of the past are narrated, followed by the lessons to be learned...Given the depth as well as the sublimity of the Quranic text, a faithful translation of it into another language is virtually impossible... But as translation is one of the few ways to export the message of the Quran to allow those lacking in knowledge of Arabic to share the Quran, it becomes a duity for those in a position to fulfil this task (of translating the quran)...The translation by the late Ustadh Abdullah Yousif Ali was consequently chosen for its distinguishing characteristics, such as ...choice of words close to the meaning of the original text, accompanied by scholarly notes and commentaries."

   Allah spread out earth and set mountains standing firm…50: 7

<This is wrong because mountains do move thanks to plate tectonics, Muhammad didn’t know about this as proven by this verse>

Foggy ol' pal, have you not read the verse "And We have set on earth firm mountains lest it should shake with them," (21:32) 

To the perception of the general public, if you go around telling them mountains move, they'll think you're on drugs.  tell a kid that mountains are not firm but instead they are wobbly and he'll get nightmares from your ingeniousness. 

the experience of an earthquake, where then all things move, is a logical time to bring up a point that plate tectonics make and break mountains. That's where the verse i pointed out comes in.  

so when you read a verse in the Quran that says that Allah created mountains standing firm or immovable, that's plain common sense and doesn't negate the existence of earthquakes or plate tectonics. 

stating something true doesn't eliminate another equally true thing.  Make that a rule of thumb for ya.

·        God made earth like a carpet spread out…20:53

With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

 Allah made the earth a carpet…71:19

 <There are two mistakes here. A carpet implies the world is flat (show me where is states is a sphere), it should have said: god made the earth like a mellon but only 100 million times larger. The second error:  not all planets are produced in pairs. Some reproduce asexually>

Let's complete the verse so that the reader doesn't get the wrong impression by the use of the word 'carpet' shall we?:  Allah has made the earth like a carpet which: 'has enabled you to go about therin by roads..." (20:53)

hmmm... i'm thinking, i'm thinking.        &nb sp;         &nb sp;       nope,

There is nothing in this verse that could make me think that the verse implies the earth is flat.  It specifically implies that the earth is 'spread out like a carpet' for us to 'go about therin by roads'.   

I think you are getting delusional here.  either that or you are thinking too hard.  Do this for me.  go outside your house. take a look outside.  do you see a convex curve of the ground where the middle seems at a higher point than the areas further away from the middle? Does it seem the farther you look from the middle the more it descends downward in a convex motion relating to the roundness of the earth? or do you see the landscape it wide, spread out with roads and avenues in every direction?   hmmm?   When they say ‘a hill covered in a carpet of grass' does that imply that the hill is flat?!  It would never even cross my mind.  it's a phrase that implies vastness and spaciousness.

nuf' said.

I’ll get back to them other verses in the morrow.

 

IP IP Logged
fogtrik
 
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 11 August 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 53
Quote fogtrik Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2006 at 5:23am

 

thanks Amalhayati2,

I'll be sure to get a hard copy and read it from the start. I'm interested to read more of it. Discussion is good. I'll read more links you point me towards. fogtrik. 

IP IP Logged
lovetabuleh
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 March 2006
Location: Congo
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 255
Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2006 at 10:47pm

[an-Nahl 16:15] And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

<This implies that allah made the rivers, but he never, rivers are self organising systems they don’t need a creator. Early man knew nothing of geology time scale, neither did muhammad.>

 

we all know how rivers developed through natural processes. that doesn’t dismiss the existence of a creator.  It is Allah who governs the laws and methods of nature that in turn through changing environments brings about rivers, streams, forests, deserts etc.  it is He who controls the laws of nature and therefore it is only logical to connect Allah to the generation of these rivers and streams.

 

·        Allah set mountains firm for earth not to shake…31:10

 [Luqman 31:10] He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.

 <Not all animals exist in pairs, simple animals reproduce by asexual reproduction. There is no male- female sponge. Muhammad didn’t know this! A god would have>

 

hmmm.. simply put: a true statement doesn’t override or deny another equally true statement.  This verse relates a very true and viable fact: the existence of male and female parts.  It doesn’t negate the fact that there is also asexual reproduction.  Additionally I don’t think it is quite fathomable to introduce this additional info to a 7th century people with a 7th century mind capacity.  Tools have only gotten high tech just in these recent decades.

 

Nonetheless, Allah always makes it clear that there is a lot out there that He knows of and we still don’t know.  So Allah commands us to explore and find out (I think I told you this before):

 

Read! And they Lord is Most Bountiful. He to taught use of the pen, Taught man that which he knew not.  (96:3-5)

 

There are a number of verses that relate the endless knowledge that is out there that we humans could only grasp only so much of it.  Here is an example:

 

Say, “if the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of m Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement.”  (18:109)

 

This verse relates the infinite Knowledge of Allah.  If one were to write out all the knowledge that Allah has, using an ocean full of ink- the ocean would be used up before the knowledge of Allah has been completely written. The verse ends with saying- even if He (Allah) filled up the ocean a second time, and one continued to write down the extensive knowledge of Allah, one will use it up again and the knowledge of Allah will not have ended.

 .  

 

Although “Muhammad didn’t know this!” he never preached to know all anyways.  He just preached that he knows best. (That’s why we Muslims follow in his footsteps in character and deed).  Remember Fogtrik, our prophet was illiterate.  He didn’t know how to read or write.  He did however know that there is more knowledge out there and preached that fact.  Why then do you have ancient Muslims scholars as those who contributed most to the foundation in the fields of  medicine/astronomy/mathematics?  Simply, Islam teaches to excel in knowledge.

 

IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 30 August 2006 at 8:54am

fogtrik,

From you: "This is the second part of my post about my study of the quran as a true none-believer. You folks see the book as perfect, however I see it from a sceintific point of view."

Qur'aan is not a text book on Science.

You have to see it only from this point of view: "You shall worship only the Lord Almighty with all your hearts, all your minds and all your souls."

IP IP Logged
lovetabuleh
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 March 2006
Location: Congo
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 255
Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2006 at 2:42pm

·        The sun and the moon run its course and Allah regulates all affairs…13:2

 [ar-Ra`d 13:2] God is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)!

 

<god is he who raised the heaven without pillars? This implies that the earth is the center of the universe? Earth is in the arm of a spiral galaxy, one of 100 billion stars in 100 billion galaxies. The sun and moon are not subject to allah’s laws, they are governed by gravity. Muhammad didn’t know that the same gravity pulling an apple also controls the planet. He also didn’t know how fractal the universe is, or that earth wasn’t that important. This is proof of a simple man's POV!>

 

 

foggy, is your eyesight getting a bit too fogged up? Can’t you see what these verses are saying?  Man, I don’t even need to open the Quran to look up any commentaries on the verses you question!  Your perception is what needs fixin dude.  The in space, the heavens you see above us, -do you see anything that is keeping them above us?  Like any pillars?  It comes from an understanding that a ceiling needs pillars to keep it up.  The roof of a house is built on the walls of the house.  So when the vast heavens are extended above us, and there is no ‘pillars’ or anything physical holding it up, it’s a wonder.  Especially in the 7th century. The Quran came down in the 7th century.  Today in the 21st century, we discovered the law of gravity and other laws that permit the heavens to be the way they are.  What we know today hasn’t nullified any verses of the Quran.  What we keep figuring out these days are a part of the everlasting knowledge that is out there that Allah has and that we are figuring out.  Refer back to them verses I told ya about the infinite knowledge of Allah. (meaning the infinite discoveries of His creation, His creatures, His laws etc)

 This verse DOESN’T IMPLY THAT THE EARTH IS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE.

 

Also, when you say “the sun and moon are not subject to Allah’s laws but are governed by gravity” it’s like saying a kid is not subject to his momma’s rules but is governed by her jurisprudence.   Gravity, fogtrik, is part of the framework of the laws that Allah created.  He created gravity so yes, you are right to say that the sun and moon are governed by gravity.   The verse doesn’t negate that fact. 

 

Yes, the people at the time didn’t know “that the same gravity pulling an apple also controls the planet. [and they] also didn’t know how fractal the universe is”.  Let me remind you they are ppl of the 7th century.  Whatever they knew is what was stated in the Quran and explained by Sayyidina Muhammad in the books of Hadith.  They ‘submit themselves to Allah and His messenger’.  That’s what Muslim means dude.  “The one who submits” 

 

 

Besides, the people at the time (1400 years ago) were extravagant in faith, deed and wisdom more than extravagant in astronomy, math, physics, etc.  that doesn’t lessen the veracity of the Quran in any way though.  The Quran is a universal message.

 

The Quran didn’t specify the word gravity when relating the movement of sun and moon.  The word ‘law’ was used.  And over the centuries, we humans were curious to learn specifically what laws are out there that these planets are governed by.  And we figured out: gravity.  A 7th century person would take this verse and understand that there are laws that Allah created that govern the movement of sun and moon. 

, a 21st century person on the other hand, when reading this verse, ‘gravity’ comes to mind as one of the laws of Allah that He set the standard for movement of sun and moon.

 

You see what I mean? 

 

 

~Amal

 

ps: what’s POV?
IP IP Logged
lovetabuleh
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 March 2006
Location: Congo
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 255
Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2006 at 4:27pm

·        Allah made constellations in sky and put lamp (the sun) and a moon giving light…25:61

 [al-Furqan 25:61] Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;

 

<There is no proof in the quran that mudammad knew the earth went around the sun, and the sun went around the galaxy, and the moon went around the earth. Here he thinks the moon has its own light, when really the sun gives it the light. Another simple mistake.>

 

This verse states that the sun is a lamp and the moon is a light.  In Arabic, the word for light is ‘noor’.  Like I said Arabic words have such deeper meanings than it’s English equivalent, there are a number of ways one could express ‘noor’ in English.  “Noor’ not only means light, but also it means a reflection of light or a glow.  Like as in ‘your face is glowing’ in Arabic: ‘wijjik fi noor’.  So another definition of ‘noor’ is reflected light or glow.  In the English translation they explain how ‘light’ is in reference to ‘reflection from the lamp’ 

 

So, this verse actually relates that the sun is the source of light whereas the moon is the reflection of it, ie: giving light. In Arabic, the phrase ‘qamaran muneera’ meens ‘a moon giving or reflecting light.”

So in actuality this verse proves that it is the sun that brings forth light while the moon is lit because of the sun.  This is just more proof that the Quran is the Word of God and not some words from some genious in the 7th century who randomly said ‘the sun is a source of light and moon is the reflection of it’.  That’s silly.  Their scope of knowledge about astronomy was limited back then.  So these words couldn’t have been written by human hands.  They are the very words of Allah.  We know that sayidina Muhammad didn’t know these things during that time.  The Quran, may I remind you, is the Words of Allah not the words of Muhammad.  Allah taught Sayidina Muhammad knowledge.  Sayyidina Muhammad didn’t come up with it all by himself. 

 

The quran is not there to prove that Sayidina Muhammaed knew of how “the earth went around the sun, and the sun went around the galaxy, and the moon went around the earth.”  The Qruan is there as a universal message that Allah portrays His signs and provides the natural codes of life that behoves us all to comply with: it is based within the simple doctrine of Islam. 

IP IP Logged
lovetabuleh
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 March 2006
Location: Congo
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 255
Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 01 September 2006 at 11:13pm

·        Allah has appointed mansions for moon till she returns like an old withered palm leaf…36:39

 [Ya Sin 36:39] And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.

<More proof that Muhammad knew nothing about the moon's orbit and where it went after it sank! A smart man in 600 having seen a solar and lunar eclipse could have figured this out. Proof Muhammad was never told much by god>

 

Fogtrik, your inquiries disgust me.  You really don’t have the right perception in reading these very clear verses and neither do you understand that these are the words of Allah- not the words of Sayyidina Muhammad.  I don’t’ know why in every argument you add “muhammad didn’t know…”  Sayyidina Muhammad didn’t write these verses, he is illiterate!  And what he knows is what Allah explained to him about each verse in the whole Quran.  So his knowledge far exceeds our own in explaining the Quran.  If you wanted to bring prophet Muhammad in the picture, you bring sources from books of Hadith. 

 

Here is the commentary of the above verse :  The lunar stations (or mansions)  are the 28 divisions of the Zodiac, which are supposed to mark the daily course of the moon in the heavens from the time of the new moon to the time when the moon fades away in her ‘inter-lunar swoon’, an expressive phrase coined by the poet Shelly.  ‘Urjun: A raceme of dates or of a date-palm; or the base...of the raceme.  When it becomes old, it becomes yellow, dry and withered, and curves up like a sickle. Hence the comparison with the sickle-like appearance of the new moon. The moon runs through all her phases, increasing and decreasing, until she disappears, and then reappears as a little thin curve.”

 

I suggest you get the Quran with the English translation AND COMMENTARY that would give you some more clear explanations of these verses you question. 

 

 

No more of this nonsense, your accusations are nowhere near intelligent or logical. you’re all mixed up in your perception of these very clear verses.  Once you get a Quran that has comprehensive commentary and you read the intro of what to expect before studying this Holy Book, then you might be a little bit more clear-minded. 

 

Then you wouldn’t make a fool out of yourself asking these preposterous and baseless questions.

 

 

PEACE
IP IP Logged
Page  of 3 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com