Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Fogtrik and Others Please see! Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 2 Next >>
Author Message
ABK_Ms
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 24 August 2006
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
Quote ABK_Ms Replybullet Topic: Fogtrik and Others Please see!
    Posted: 24 August 2006 at 3:11am

ABOUT EARTH IN HER ORBIT

Brother,

Dont feel offended but I think you have come up with this topic having poor knowledge about Quran. Quran never makes mistakes dear. It is Allah's word. Quran is a book undoubtedly precise and explicit and have found to be 100% true while compared to any of the standard of knowledge of any age. How come science be any different?

Allah Almighty says in Holy Quran: Chapter No. 36(Surah Yaseen) Verse No. 39-40

It says, Neither night nor the day may supercede one another(night and day will come as they are programmed). Every object in the heaven is waving/moving around its orbit.

These verses not only tell you that earth along with every object in the Universe are moving around their orbits but also the truth of composition of days and nights as a result of earths motion around the sun.

I will be awaiting another 30 pages of mistakes.

May Allah bless Muslims and those who are not Murtads and MUSHRIKS!

 

ABOUT HAZRAT AISHA (R.A)

Brothers,

This is a misconception. The Hadith (Orders and History of Holy Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H) was written after him being departed from the mortal world. So everything is quoted by someone. But we do believe in Sahi Hadith and therefore I will respond to you on this. 

If you read Islamic History by various historians, you will find contradictions in mentioning the age of Hazrat Aysha (R.A). But one thing may be found on which there is most frequently a consensus that she was given in marriage 3 years before Rukhsati (Bride leaving paternal home for the groom's house). If she was given in nikah in the age of 9 and she left his fathers house after 3 years then she was 12 years old. And girls normally reach puberty in Arab in the age of 10 to 12 normally. And a girl attaining puberty may be given in marriage validly according to all major religions INCLUDING christinity and Judism.

But I do admit that some historians quote she was 6 when she was wedlocked with the Prophet and came to Prophet's house in the age of 9. If we accept it as true for the sake of argument even then there are many examples not only in Arab but across the world where we have observed millions of girls reaching puberty even before reaching the age of 8. You are referred to http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/apr97/puberty2.html. Just Click it bro. Your American Institute says this Believe me I havent written that.

Another link is http://www.thimmakka.org/Newsletters/Newsletter4/puberty.htm l. Go and confirm by yourself that a girl can reach even in the age of 7 the age of puberty. And I am 100% certain that our Holy prophet awaited three years just for this!

SO PLEASE DONT MISREPRESENT!

Regards from ABK
IP IP Logged
Andalus
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1187
Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2006 at 11:16am
Originally posted by ABK_Ms

ABOUT EARTH IN HER ORBIT

Brother,

Dont feel offended but I think you have come up with this topic having poor knowledge about Quran. Quran never makes mistakes dear. It is Allah's word. Quran is a book undoubtedly precise and explicit and have found to be 100% true while compared to any of the standard of knowledge of any age. How come science be any different?

Allah Almighty says in Holy Quran: Chapter No. 36(Surah Yaseen) Verse No. 39-40

It says, Neither night nor the day may supercede one another(night and day will come as they are programmed). Every object in the heaven is waving/moving around its orbit.

These verses not only tell you that earth along with every object in the Universe are moving around their orbits but also the truth of composition of days and nights as a result of earths motion around the sun.

I will be awaiting another 30 pages of mistakes.

May Allah bless Muslims and those who are not Murtads and MUSHRIKS!

 

ABOUT HAZRAT AISHA (R.A)

Brothers,

This is a misconception. The Hadith (Orders and History of Holy Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H) was written after him being departed from the mortal world. So everything is quoted by someone. But we do believe in Sahi Hadith and therefore I will respond to you on this. 

If you read Islamic History by various historians, you will find contradictions in mentioning the age of Hazrat Aysha (R.A). But one thing may be found on which there is most frequently a consensus that she was given in marriage 3 years before Rukhsati (Bride leaving paternal home for the groom's house). If she was given in nikah in the age of 9 and she left his fathers house after 3 years then she was 12 years old. And girls normally reach puberty in Arab in the age of 10 to 12 normally. And a girl attaining puberty may be given in marriage validly according to all major religions INCLUDING christinity and Judism.

But I do admit that some historians quote she was 6 when she was wedlocked with the Prophet and came to Prophet's house in the age of 9. If we accept it as true for the sake of argument even then there are many examples not only in Arab but across the world where we have observed millions of girls reaching puberty even before reaching the age of 8. You are referred to http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/apr97/puberty2.html. Just Click it bro. Your American Institute says this Believe me I havent written that.

Another link is http://www.thimmakka.org/Newsletters/Newsletter4/puberty.htm l. Go and confirm by yourself that a girl can reach even in the age of 7 the age of puberty. And I am 100% certain that our Holy prophet awaited three years just for this!

SO PLEASE DONT MISREPRESENT!

Assalam Aleikum.

This is a piece that provides a solid bases from which to argue that Aisha was 6 at time of betrothel and 9 at times of marriage.

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00004861.aspx

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2006 at 11:20am

Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?

The Ancient Myth Exposed

by T.O. Shanavas

A Christian friend asked me once, “Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?” I kept my silence. He continued, “If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?” I told him, “I don’t have an answer to your question at this time.” My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet’s marriage with Ayesha.

However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.

The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.

In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.

So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha’s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn ‘Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.

 

EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source

Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.

Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: “I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq” (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).

Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: “When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).

CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.

CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:

  • pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
  • 610 CE: First revelation
  • 610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
  • 613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
  • 615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
  • 616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
  • 620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
  • 622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
  • 623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet

EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal

According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.

However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.

CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.

 

EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima

According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha” (Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).

If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’s age at marriage would be 12 years.

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.

 

EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha’s Age in relation to Asma’s Age

According to Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow).

According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.

If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.

Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Ayesha’s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20. In Evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha was 12 years old and in Evidence #4 he contradicts himself with a 17 or 18-year-old Ayesha. What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha’s age.

 

EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud

A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: “when we reached Shajarah”. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinna ma`a’lrijal): “Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].” Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.

It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.”

Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud

CONCLUSION: Ayesha’s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha’s age.

 

EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr).

Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.

CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.

 

EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha’s name.

All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word “virgin” in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a “lady” (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is “adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.” Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.

 

EVIDENCE #8. The Qur’anic Text

All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha’s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?

There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran’s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: “And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...” (Quran, 4:5-6).

In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.

Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.

In light of the above verses, no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) claims that nine-year-old Ayesha was rather more interested in playing with toy-horses than taking up the responsible task of a wife. It is difficult to believe, therefore, that AbuBakr, a great believer among Muslims, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet. Equally difficult to imagine is that the Prophet would marry an immature seven-year-old girl.

Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is to educate them. Let us ask the question, “How many of us believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?” The answer is none. Logically, it is an impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven. Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage?

AbuBakr was a more judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Quran. He would not have married her to anyone. If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to the Prophet, he would have rejected it outright because neither the Prophet nor AbuBakr would violate any clause in the Quran.

CONCLUSION: The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.

 

EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.

By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.

It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.

Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.

CONCLUSION: The Prophet did not marry a seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of the valid permission clause of the Islamic Marriage Decree. Therefore, the Prophet married an intellectually and physically mature lady Ayesha.

 

SUMMARY:

It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha’s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.

Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.

 

T.O. Shanavas is a physician based in Michigan. This article first appeared in The Minaret in March 1999.

IP IP Logged
Andalus
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1187
Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2006 at 11:43am

Greetings Angela.

I can tell you have not looked at the link I gave. It is a direct reply to this poorly written piece. Tha author is extremely dishonest and misrepresents the facts. I am sure he is a great doctor, but scholarship should be left to scholars.

This material was already put up in the Quran discussion thread. And I replied with this material written by another brother, and I also made use of the link.

Both things completely refute Shanavas.

Please refer to the link also.

Thanks!

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father.

Reply:
This isn't a very good start for Shanavas and those who've submitted to his arguments. "Most of the narratives", we are told, "are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah." Okay, let's accept for argument's sake that most of them have been reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah. Yet it is clear from Shanavas' own words that there are in fact other reports that aren't related through Hisham at all. So why doesn't Shanavas mention any of them? Shanavas all too quickly passes over evidence that refutes his thesis, and his supporters are more than willing to let him do so. They are equally to blame; guilty by association i'd say.

The fact that other narrators agree with Hisham in reporting the young age of Aisha (r) at the time of her marriage suffices to show grave defects in Shanavas' evidence #1 argument. His attempt therefore - as we shall see below - to discredit Hisham ibn `Urwah is both unnecessary and disingenuous. This is despite the fact that to suit his purpose Shanavas has grossly exaggerated Hisham's weakness as we shall see. Shanavas wants us to believe that Hisham was mistaken in his reporting of Aisha's (r) age. So what? Is he also going to condemn all the other narrators that agree with Hisham?

Hisham ibn `Urwah isn't alone in reporting Aisha's (r) young age at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad (s). Here are some other narrators who report the same age that Hisham does:

Ibn Majah (d.273H) in his Sunan hadith collection, in the book of marriage, records it with his chain of transmission through Abu Ubaydah, on the authority of Abdullah ibn Mas'ud.

An-Nasa'i (d.303H) in his Sunan, the book of marriage, cites it with his chain of transmission through Muhammad ibn Abi Salmah, on the authority of Abdul Rahman, on the authority of Aisha (r).

An-Nasa'i also relates it through al-'Amash, on the authority of Ibrahim, on the authority of al-Aswad, from Aisha. (Cf. ibn al-Qayyim's [d.751H], Tahdhib as-Sunan #2122). Likewise, Hafidh al-Haythami (d.807H), in his Majma az-Zawa'id (#15297), cites it from al-Aswad from Aisha (r) as does Imam Ahmed (d.241H) in his Musnad collection, in the section on Aisha's (r) hadith.

At-Tabarani (d.360H) in his Mu'jam al-Kabir, in the chapter on the wives of the Prophet (s), has a number of chains of transmission for this report. Here are three of them:

- from Sa'd ibn Ibrahim, on the authority of al-Qasim ibn Muhammad, from Aisha (r)

- from Sai'd ibn Abu 'Aruba, on the authority of Qatadah, re. Aisha

- from Abu Asamah, on the authority of al-'Ajlih, on the authority of ibn Abi Malayka, re. Aisha

None of the above routes of transmission go through Hisham ibn `Urwah yet they agree with him in narrating the young age of Aisha (r).

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported.

Reply:
It is in fact reported by more than just one, two or three people.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas.

Reply:
Al-Qasim ibn Muhammad reports the age from Aisha (r) as per at-Tabarani's chain above and he was one of the seven famous Imams of Madina.

The last chain cited from at-Tabarani's work is through ibn Abi Malayka who is another Madinan scholar and an eminently reliable hadith narrator. He met at least thirty of the Prophet's (s) Companions. (ibn Hajar, at-Taqrib #3454)

Yahya al-Lakhmi also reports it from Aisha (r), as per ibn Sa'd's (d.230H) Tabaqat al-Kubra, and he is another Madinan authority.

In Sahih Muslim (#1422) we have az-Zuhri citing this report from Hisham ibn 'Urwa. Az-Zuhri was a Madinan hadith master and it is safe to assume that he heard this report from Hisham in Madina prior to him moving to Iraq.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.
Reply
No! Madinan authorities have also cited this hadith as have other non-Iraqi narrators through chains that don't mention Hisham at all.

 

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50)
Reply
This is nothing more than selective quoting. Shanavas picks out the quote that fits his purpose and avoids mentioning the authorities who declared Hisham's hadith as perfectly reliable. It's funny how under evidence #4 Shanavas concludes that "Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha's age" yet here we find him unashamedly citing from ibn Hajar's work simply because it suits his argument.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: “I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq” (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).
Reply
Yes, but Hisham's report about Aisha's age wasn't just reported through Iraqis.

In any case, Yaqub ibn Shaibah's and Malik's criticism of Hisham is based on nothing more than the fact that Hisham towards the end of his life no longer use the phrase "narrated to me" but would say "My father, from Aisha" for the sake of brevity - the difference between these two phrases may not be immediately obvious but they do represent technical differences from the standpoint of hadith science. Consequently, ibn Hajar - who is Shanavas' reference for this criticism - himself rejected the objection as negligible, saying: "It was clear enough to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what he'd directly heard from him."

Unfortunately, Shanavas completely fails to mention that this particular criticism had been dismissed centuries ago by the very authority that he pointed his readers to.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: “When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).
Reply
Now Shanavas switches to selectively quoting from adh-Dhahabi's work al-Mizan al-I'tidal. Shanavas quotes the words "When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly" whereas what adh-Dhababi actually says is that his "memory diminished". Memory normally diminishes in old age, doesn't it? But adh-Dhahabi rightly lambastes those who linger on the possibility that Hisham might have forgotten things towards the end of his life. He explicitly declares that Hisham:

"Never became senile at all! No attention is paid to the claim of Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattaan that he (Hisham)... became senile and (that his ability) changed... So stop fumbling and refrain from mixing the firm Imams with the weak and senile narrators... may Allah console us from you, Ibn al-Qattan, and also from the claim of Abdul Rahman ibn Khirash that Malik was not pleased with him (Hisham) and that he objected to his hadiths to the people of Iraq!" (adh-Dhahabi, al-Mizan #9233).

Again, Shanavas, for reasons best known to him, doesn't bother to tell his readers any of this. Hisham related the same hadith in Madina and in Iraq, other Madinan narrators report the same hadith independent of Hisham, and they all agree on Aisha's (r) young age. Adh-Dhahabi said: "His memory diminished in old age, so what?" (ibid). Exactly, so what? His reporting of this hadith was unaffected.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
CONCLUSION #1:

Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.

I hardly think so!

Wassalam
Iqbal
Link to material:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/archive/index.php/t-73057.html

 

Originally posted by Angela

Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?

The Ancient Myth Exposed

by T.O. Shanavas

A Christian friend asked me once, “Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?” I kept my silence. He continued, “If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?” I told him, “I don’t have an answer to your question at this time.” My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet’s marriage with Ayesha.

However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.

The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.

In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.

So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha’s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn ‘Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.

EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source

Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.

Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: “I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq” (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).

Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: “When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).

CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.

CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:

  • pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
  • 610 CE: First revelation
  • 610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
  • 613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
  • 615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
  • 616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
  • 620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
  • 622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
  • 623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet

EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal

According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.

However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.

CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima

According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha” (Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).

If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’s age at marriage would be 12 years.

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.

EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha’s Age in relation to Asma’s Age

According to Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow).

According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.

If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.

Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Ayesha’s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20. In Evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha was 12 years old and in Evidence #4 he contradicts himself with a 17 or 18-year-old Ayesha. What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?

CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud

A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: “when we reached Shajarah”. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinna ma`a’lrijal): “Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].” Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.

It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.”

Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud

CONCLUSION: Ayesha’s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha’s age.

EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr).

Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.

CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.

EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha’s name.

All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word “virgin” in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a “lady” (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is “adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.” Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.

EVIDENCE #8. The Qur’anic Text

All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha’s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?

There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran’s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: “And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...” (Quran, 4:5-6).

In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.

Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.

In light of the above verses, no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) claims that nine-year-old Ayesha was rather more interested in playing with toy-horses than taking up the responsible task of a wife. It is difficult to believe, therefore, that AbuBakr, a great believer among Muslims, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet. Equally difficult to imagine is that the Prophet would marry an immature seven-year-old girl.

Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is to educate them. Let us ask the question, “How many of us believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?” The answer is none. Logically, it is an impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven. Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage?

AbuBakr was a more judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Quran. He would not have married her to anyone. If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to the Prophet, he would have rejected it outright because neither the Prophet nor AbuBakr would violate any clause in the Quran.

CONCLUSION: The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.

 

EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.

By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.

It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.

Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.

CONCLUSION: The Prophet did not marry a seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of the valid permission clause of the Islamic Marriage Decree. Therefore, the Prophet married an intellectually and physically mature lady Ayesha.

SUMMARY:

It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha’s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.

Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.

T.O. Shanavas is a physician based in Michigan. This article first appeared in The Minaret in March 1999.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2006 at 11:47am

Sorry, I had been looking for this piece and hadn't updated the window before hitting the post button.  We overlapped because I was digging through old forums.  I will check those links out. 

I guess this is just one of those things I just can't seem to get past.  I know that once upon a time it was acceptable for a 12 year old to be married, but its still too much of a stretch for me to go to 6 & 9.

IP IP Logged
ABK_Ms
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 24 August 2006
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
Quote ABK_Ms Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2006 at 1:12pm

Originally posted by Angela

OK! It is hard to digest. You must have visited URLs mentioned by me. Havent you? If not please do! If not go to a medical doctor and ask him/her about reasons given in the articles and research reports.

About the age of Hazrat Aisha (R.A). I presume you havent read the bolder part of my post. I am pasting that for your ease. Here it goes...:

If we accept it as true for the sake of argument even then there are many examples not only in Arab but across the world where we have observed millions of girls reaching puberty even before reaching the age of 8. You are referred to http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/apr97/puberty2.html. Just Click it bro. Your American Institute says this Believe me I havent written that.

Another link is http://www.thimmakka.org/Newsletters/Newsletter4/puberty.htm l. Go and confirm by yourself that a girl can reach even in the age of 7 the age of puberty. And I am 100% certain that our Holy prophet awaited three years just for this!

Regards from ABK
IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2006 at 1:42pm

No, I'm not disputing the physical aspect of maturing that early.  I was only 11.  My friend in elementary school was in the second grade.  But, being physically able to bear children does not make you developmentally ready to take on the responsibility of sex.

My difficulty does not come from the physical but the mental.  I worked with victims of sex abuse.  I can tell you, a 9 year old that has had sex with an older man does not blossom. 

I'm not saying Muhammed (pbuh) did not love his wife and treat her well.  But, It just makes more sense to me that a man of his bearing would have taken a wife both physically and mentally ready for the responsibilities of marriage. 

Its a hard pill to swallow from someone who's seen children destroyed by sex.

IP IP Logged
ABK_Ms
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 24 August 2006
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
Quote ABK_Ms Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2006 at 2:33pm

Originally posted by Angela

Good! Now this is a topic! How a mindset develops? Would you like to have a Freud perspective or that of a Muslim? Ecosystem both ways plays a pivotal role. Go back to an age 1500 years ago. Imagine deserts of Arabia, slaughter of newly born daughters, woman being used as a tool to please sexual desires and then to be striped like beasts of burden even if they collide a tribesman. Sex, intoxication, idol worship and bloodshed being the order of the day; Conceive the status of humanity when this Man born to uplift humanity.

Dont forget you are not living in 21st century in a developed nation. Knowing Human rights, Mindset development, Freedom everything. You are in an age where every parent was too worried about the future of his daughter to kill her to death or to give her a few years life so that she may be thrown in the abyss of disgust and disgrace. "Mindsets were like this dear"

If at that time a person rose to give life of respect and grace to women people accuse him? They think this man of greatest honor crippled mindsets? I know that Abu Bakr and the prophet (P.B.U.H) were friends but the traditional mentalities take time to vanish and the age was not suitable for any virgin to be unmarried for a longer period of time as it was misconceived by majority. I ask you one thing if you were the parent of a girl at a time like this and in a culture like this what you had done? Another thing about mental state. There is one world of a difference between rape/illicit intercourse/and marriage. Out of 13 marriages Holy prophet had 8 widows or helpless newly reverted Muslims. Having that in view it is logically proveable that this marriage was also for some reason. And about having sex. Please dont read anti islamic propaganda they dont know what they are doing to themselves. Only the DAY OF JUDGEMENT will judge that!

Regards from ABK
IP IP Logged
Page  of 2 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com