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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2006 at 2:06am
Originally posted by Muhammad77

[

Ok. If you had to choose between the findings of a same thing from an atheist scientist and a theist scientist, whos finding would you trust more?

I should be able to trust both.

 

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Whisper
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2006 at 2:17am
Hermana, you are absolutely right!

Dearest brother, let me assure you, this is not a he or a she, maybe IT would be more appropriate for the Darwinian Drivel..Why does't IT go pick on the Christian forums for a change of scenery?

I also told you once, somewhere, that our Angel was really an angel of absolute innocence (which is also known as something else!) and we all love her.

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Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2006 at 3:13am

Superme

Of course you can find plenty of information on anti-Islamic sites on different ways to translate a Quranic verse.
But the problem is you never know where the boundary is between academic linguistic information and anti-Islamic slander, unless you have already some knowledge of the subject.

I found a very interesting article by a Muslim on the translation of the "Big Bang" verse. You will see the complexity of translating some words and the different opinions of Muslim scholars.

My opinion is that those verses are about the creation of the universe but do not advocate the expanse of the universe in a Big Bang manner. It is only a translation possibility among others.

Here is the article:
http://www.bogvaerker.dk/Bookwright/expansion.html

 





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superme
 
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Quote superme Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2006 at 9:26am

Originally posted by fogtrik

Animals evolved together (whole ecosystems do infact), which is why the proboscus of a humming bird fits into a flower perfectly, or why an orchid looks and smells like a bee's thorax. The bee 'humps' the flower thinking he's getting sex but instead leaves covered in pollen.

Flowers and insects have been exploiting each other for millions of years, they are this way  because of adaptive evolution not because Allah wished it and created this way. Surely you can't deny this reality? There's millions of example of this, some simple, some complex.

There's beauty in self organising systems. Fog.

Fog my interest here is that human came from apes, or sharing the same root which you need to explain.

Forget about human for the time being.  Todays method to avoid the extinction is by delivering the sperms to reach the eggs in the female wombs.

1. What was the method prior of that.

2. And how long did it take to evolve from that methode to sperm eggs method.

3. What kept them survive during the transition.

I will be back later on in the day after work.

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lovetabuleh
 
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Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2006 at 10:56am
Originally posted by superme

Fog my interest here is that human came from apes, or sharing the same root which you need to explain.

Forget about human for the time being.  Todays method to avoid the extinction is by delivering the sperms to reach the eggs in the female wombs.

1. What was the method prior of that.

2. And how long did it take to evolve from that methode to sperm eggs method.

3. What kept them survive during the transition.

I will be back later on in the day after work.

Answers that I have learned in my years as science major:

1.) prior to that, the dominant means of reproduction was asexual reproduction (you know, like how bacteria divide and reproduce)

2.) The first means of sexual reproduction seen on earth was 600 million years ago by the first apearance of simple plants and animals comming out 'from the sea'.

3.) what kept them surviving during that time is that they probably just kept reproducing. at that time there was both asexual and sexual reproduction (both competing with each other in adaptive selection)

we see now that sexual reproduction has been selected for because there is more variety in offsprings. this characteristic gives more chances of spreading genes to the next generation since it is not likely that if a disease strikes, all offspring will die. not all organisms wil be affected the same way and some will die while others will survive. and those that survive will be able to spread their genes to the next generation.

asexual reprod. produces identicle offspring and if a disease or sickness strikes, almost all will die and therefore the more 'able' of the two means of reproduction that nature selected for is sexual reproduction.  

although with these viable probabilities scientists came up with, there still are numerous unanswered questions and confusion.  scientists sitll hadn't quite put their finger on exactly how did the means of reproduction change from asexual to sexual reproduction millions of years ago.

 "Theories about the evolution of sex have proven to be very difficult to test experimentally, and so the answer is still very much open to speculation." (http://www.evolutionary-philosophy.net/sex.html)

 

i guess this is one of many clues that prove there are holes in the theory of evolution.  they can't seem to figure out how these matters 'self organized'.  what was a biologist's dream to know, turned out to be the pre-biotic chemist's nightmare!!

but i say, let them drowned in their own enigma. we muslims know that there is a Divine intervention in these millions of years of environmental growth.

 

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superme
 
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Quote superme Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2006 at 7:03pm

Thanks amal for the the explanation. I have read that in short articles in magazines. I asked the same question to someone who is the staunchest evolutionist at work about 4 years ago without answer except that he said that is the way the evolution works. Honestly these evolutionist are using the same words they are accusing we are of. They say we keep on saying God create them - and they seem saying the worse mantras: evolution evolution evolution.

Imagining the transition to accomodate the evolution hypothesis is struggling enough. But people need to be at home with each respective ideologies I guess, with that at least the evolutionist feel having some purpose in life by trying to compete the theology, otherwise it is an empty life.

Anyway thanks again for your time in typing all of this.

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lovetabuleh
 
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Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2006 at 9:17pm
any time sista! 
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fogtrik
 
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Quote fogtrik Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2006 at 3:05am

 

Kind Folks,

So all the Molecular evolutists, Orthologous molecular scientists, structural biologyists, Genetic genealogists, gentetic anthropologists got it wrong? they are wasting their time studying how genomes evolved from each other?

100,000's of scientists around the world studying the evolution of the world ecosystem's genome are not wasting their time! You all think Evolution didn't happen even given how all the evidence interlinks to prove it, and you dismiss all of this because of one book? Doesn't this make you ignorant? Maybe the ASPM gene didn't work well in certain parts of the world :)

Foggy :)

***

Some reading from wikipedia.org, spend 30 minutes read some genetic stuff.

ASPM gene

Primary microcephaly (MCPH) is a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by global reduction in cerebral cortical volume. The microcephalic brain has a volume comparable to that of early hominids, raising the possibility that some MCPH genes may have been evolutionary targets in the expansion of the cerebral cortex in mammals and especially primates. Mutations in ASPM, which encodes the human homologue of a fly protein essential for spindle function, are the most common known cause of MCPH. Here we have isolated large genomic clones containing the complete ASPM gene, including promoter regions and introns, from chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, and rhesus macaque by transformation-associated recombination cloning in yeast. We have sequenced these clones and show that whereas much of the sequence of ASPM is substantially conserved among primates, specific segments are subject to high Ka/Ks ratios (nonsynonymous/synonymous DNA changes) consistent with strong positive selection for evolutionary change. The ASPM gene sequence shows accelerated evolution in the African hominoid clade, and this precedes hominid brain expansion by several million years. Gorilla and human lineages show particularly accelerated evolution in the IQ domain of ASPM. Moreover, ASPM regions under positive selection in primates are also the most highly diverged regions between primates and nonprimate mammals. We report the first direct application of TAR cloning technology to the study of human evolution. Our data suggest that evolutionary selection of specific segments of the ASPM sequence strongly relates to differences in cerebral cortical size.

The defining process in the evolution of primates and particularly humans is the dramatic expansion of the brain. While many types of genes could potentially contribute to this process, genes that specifically regulate brain size during development may be especially relevant. Here, we examine the evolution of the Microcephalin gene, whose null mutation in humans causes primary microcephaly, a congenital defect characterized by severe reductions in brain size without other gross abnormalities. We show that the evolution of Microcephalin's protein sequence is highly accelerated throughout the lineage from simian ancestors to humans and chimpanzees, with the most pronounced acceleration seen in the early periods of this lineage. We further demonstrate that this accelerated evolution is coupled with signatures of positive selection. Statistical analysis suggests that about 45 advantageous amino acid changes in Microcephalin might have fixed during the 25-30 million years of evolution from early simian progenitors to modern humans. These observations support the notion that the molecular evolution of Microcephalin may have contributed to brain expansion in the simian lineage leading to humans. We have recently shown that ASPM, another gene linked to primary microcephaly, experienced strong positive selection in the ape lineage leading to humans. We therefore propose that genes regulating brain size during development may have the general propensity to contribute to brain evolution in primates and particularly humans.

 

In human genetics, Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups are haplogroups defined by differences in the DNA of the Y chromosome (called Y-DNA).

Y-DNA haplogroups are lettered A through R, and are further subdivided using numbers and lower case letters. Y chromosome haplogroup designations are established by the Y Chromosome Consortium [1].

Y-chromosomal Adam is the name given by researchers to the male who is the most recent common patrilineal (male-lineage) ancestor of all living humans. Note that while patrilinear separation of living humans dates to about 80,000 years ago (80 kya), the matrilinear tree preserves considerably older lineages, separation of living humans dating to ca. 150 kya.

The molecular clock (based on the molecular clock hypothesis (MCH)) is a technique in genetics, which researchers use to date when two species diverged. It deduces elapsed time from the number of minor differences between their DNA sequences. It is sometimes called a gene clock.

The notion of a "molecular clock" was first attributed to Emile Zuckerkandl and Linus Pauling who, in 1962, noticed that the quantity of amino acid differences in hemoglobin between lineages roughly matched the known evolutionary rate of divergence based upon fossil evidence. They generalized this observation to assert that the rate of evolutionary change of any specified protein was approximately constant over time and over different lineages. It has been applied to DNA sequence evolution also, particularly neutral evolution

Molecular evolution is the process of evolution at the scale of DNA, RNA, and proteins. Molecular evolution emerged as a scientific field in the 1960's as researchers from molecular biology, evolutionary biology and population genetics sought to understand recent discoveries on the structure and function of nucleic acids and protein. Some of the key topics that spurred development of the field have been the evolution of enzyme function, the use of nucleic acid divergence as a "molecular clock" to study species divergence, and the origin of non-functional or junk DNA. Recent advances in genomics, including whole-genome sequencing, high-throughput protein characterization, and bioinformatics have led to a dramatic increase in studies on the topic. In the 2000s, some of the active topics have been the role of gene duplication in the emergence of novel gene function, the extent of adaptive molecular evolution versus neutral drift, and the identification of molecular changes responsible for various human characteristics especially those pertaining to infection, disease, and cognition.

Orthologous molecules provide useful information in taxonomic classification studies of organisms. The pattern of genetic divergence can be used to trace the relatedness of organisms. Two organisms that are very closely related can display very similar gene sequences. Conversely, an organism that is further removed evolutionarily from another organism can display a greater variation in the sequence of the gene in question.

Gene duplication occurs when an error in homologous recombination, a retrotransposition event, or duplication of an entire chromosome leads to the duplication of a region of DNA containing a gene [1]. The significance of this process for evolutionary biology is that, unlike a single functional gene, which is usually subject to purifying selection and thus has a slowed mutation rate, one copy of a duplicate set of genes is often freed from selective pressure, allowing it to freely mutate. This is because with two copies of a gene present, mutations in just one copy of the gene often have no deleterious effect on the organism; thus, the second copy is free to "explore" the sequence space by mutating randomly. The duplicate gene may either (a) acquire mutations that lead to a gene with a novel function or (b) acquire deleterious mutations and become a pseudogene.

The postulate that gene duplication has a major role in evolution was developed by Susumu Ohno in his classical book "Evolution by gene duplication" (1970) and is now widely accepted as a major evolutionary force. Some have argued that gene duplication is the most important evolutionary force since the emergence of the universal common ancestor [2].



Edited by fogtrik
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