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Knowledge01
 
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Quote Knowledge01 Replybullet Topic: Allaah is above His Throne and He is ....
    Posted: 07 August 2006 at 11:04am
Allaah is above His Throne and He is close to us by His Knowledge


It is proven in the Qur’aan and Sunnah and by the consensus (ijmaa’) of the salaf (early generations) of this ummah that Allaah is above His heavens on His Throne, and that He is the Exalted, Most High. He is Above all things, and there is nothing that is above Him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days. Then He rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). You (mankind) have none, besides Him, as a Wali (protector or helper) or an intercessor. Will you not then remember (or receive admonition)?”
[al-Sajdah 32:4]

“Surely, your Lord is Allaah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things [Yoonus 10:3]

“To Him ascend (all) the goodly words, and the righteous deeds exalt it (i.e. the goodly words are not accepted by Allaah unless and until they are followed by good deeds) [Faatir 35:10]
“He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him) [al-Hadeed 57:3]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “You are the Most High and there is nothing above You…”

There are many similar ayaat and ahaadeeth. But at the same time, Allaah tells us that He is with His slaves wherever they are:
“Have you not seen that Allaah knows whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth? There is no Najwa (secret counsel) of three but He is their fourth (with His Knowledge, while He Himself is over the Throne, over the seventh heaven), — nor of five but He is their sixth (with His Knowledge), — nor of less than that or more but He is with them (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they may be” [al-Mujaadilah 58:7]

Allaah has combined mention of His being above His Throne with mention of His being with His slaves in one aayah, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, and what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be[al-Hadeed 57:4]
Saying that Allaah is with us does not mean that He is mixed with (or dwells in) His creation; rather He is with His slaves by His knowledge. He is above His Throne and nothing is hidden from Him of what they do. With regard to the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):
“And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)” [Qaaf 50:16]

- most of the mufassireen said that what is meant is that He is near by means of His angels whose task it is to record people’s deeds. And those who said that it means that He is near explained it as meaning that He is near by His knowledge, as is said concerning how He is with us.

This is the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, who affirm that Allaah is above His creation and that He is also with His slaves, and they state that He is far above dwelling in His created beings. With regard to the denial of all Divine attributes as voiced by the Jahamiyyah and their followers, they deny that His Essence is above His creatures and that He rose above His Throne, and they say that He is present in His Essence everywhere. We ask Allaah to guide the Muslims.

Shaykh Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2006 at 5:39pm
What does it mean, knowledge01 to say Allah is above his throne? I mean, what constitutes a throne of Allah's? If its an inanimate object or a symbolic gesture of God's greatness what does it truly mean....in your words?
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Quote Knowledge01 Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Israfil

<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=4>What does it mean, knowledge01 to say Allah is above his throne? I mean, what constitutes a throne of Allah's? If its an inanimate object or a symbolic gesture of God's greatness what does it truly mean....in your words?


As Salam alaikum,

We know from Al Qur'an and many ahadith that the throne of Allah is real although we do not know what it looks like. and as the article says, Allah is above all his creation, there is NOTHING above Him.
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 5:04pm

Brother Knowledge01

Thank you for your quick response and in evaluating your brief statement as I understood it that such a discussion (meaning the discussion of Allah's throne and so forth) was actually a perennial argument between the Ash'rites and the Mu'tazilites who (I'm not sure which side) argued on concept of "Allah having a throne." One side argued that the idea of Allah's throne in the literalist sense indicating God performs a similar action to a human when one sits. The other argues that the throne is symbolic for God's great and majestic nature over the universe so I ask you brother which one do you believe holds true to Islamic kalaam?

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Quote Knowledge01 Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Israfil

<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=4>Brother Knowledge01


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>Thank you for your quick response and in evaluating your brief statement as I understood it that such a discussion (meaning the discussion of Allah's throne and so forth) was actually a perennial argument between the Ash'rites and the Mu'tazilites who (I'm not sure which side) argued on concept of "Allah having a throne." One side argued that the idea of Allah's throne in the literalist sense indicating God performs a similar action to a human when one sits. The other argues that the throne is symbolic for God's great and majestic nature over the universe so I ask you brother which one do you believe holds true to Islamic kalaam?



As Salam Alaikum,

Wa iyyakum.

These are matters that humans simply do not have much knowledge of. We can only go by what al Qur'an wa as sunnah tell us.

Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) has no human characteristics because Allah does not resemble anything of His creation in any way. Allah is above all that. He is perfect. We must stop trying to apply human characteristics to Allah.

I think both sides are right in some ways. All I know that Allah has a throne.
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 9:43pm

Interesting brother, thanks for your input

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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 8:29am

Salaam Brother Knowledge01,

I couldn't help but do a little research into this matter and had come up with several chapters (verses) in the Qur'an indicating the position of the translator and what is translated regarding the subject of Allah's Throne and his authority. In part of 10:3 Allah says: "That He established himself on the throne (of Authority) regulating and governing all things." As Yusuf Ali puts it in his commentary it appears that for Allah to set himself up upon his throne is to "mount" or "ascend" 'to firmly establish or an unshaken authority beyond question.'

In my personal opinion as a philosopher on this matter I believe Ali is partially right in his understanding of Allah's throne. It is obvious that the verse as Ali has translated relates to God'a authority in the universe. The establishment on the throne is the indication of God's fixed authority over all of creation in the universe. You can see from several  verses including the concept of the throne it follows from the verse: "Verily your Lord Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days." All of such indicating the establishment of Allah's authority sybolizing this through the following: "Then he established himself on the throne (of authority)."

  1. I would have to argue that any Muslim kalaam that supports the physical function of Allah actually sitting on a throne would consequentially and necessarily contradict the core beliefs of Islam. First off what is already established is God is incoporeal, so if there to exist an actual throne of Allah and if Allah, is to act and behave unlike things he has created then why perform the functions of sitting like the human creatures he has created? An incorporeal being such as Allah who has no bodily functions nor physical makeup cannot sit in an actual throne because he has no spinal cord etc to perform these functions. Also the act of sitting would indicated impotence in the sense that God desires to change into a posture of sitting, usually this comes from fatigue from standing. We couldn't even indicate even remotely that God stands or has two legs, all of which are the makeup of a corporeal being.

Even if we were to say the throne, like God, is incorporeal itself if God even desired to sit on this throne then much like the human creatures he has created he performs the same function as his humans which is sitting on a throne like a king to his people. Truly Allah is above any function of what he creates and has authority over the entire universe.

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Quote Knowledge01 Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 10:10am
Originally posted by Israfil

<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=3>Salaam Brother Knowledge01,


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>I couldn't help but do a little research into this matter and had come up with several chapters (verses) in the Qur'an indicating the position of the translator and what is translated regarding the subject of Allah's Throne and his authority. In part of 10:3 Allah says: "That He established himself on the throne (of Authority) regulating and governing all things." As Yusuf Ali puts it in his commentary it appears that for Allah to set himself up upon his throne is to "mount" or "ascend" 'to firmly establish or an unshaken authority beyond question.'


<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>In my personal opinion as a philosopher on this matter I believe Ali is partially right in his understanding of Allah's throne. It is obvious that the verse as Ali has translated relates to God'a authority in the universe. The establishment on the throne is the indication of God's fixed authority over all of creation in the universe. You can see from several  verses including the concept of the throne it follows from the verse: "Verily your Lord Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days." All of such indicating the establishment of Allah's authority sybolizing this through the following: "Then he established himself on the throne (of authority)."



  1. <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>I would have to argue that any Muslim kalaam that supports the physical function of Allah actually sitting on a throne would consequentially and necessarily contradict the core beliefs of Islam. First off what is already established is God is incoporeal, so if there to exist an actual throne of Allah and if Allah, is to act and behave unlike things he has created then why perform the functions of sitting like the human creatures he has created? An incorporeal being such as Allah who has no bodily functions nor physical makeup cannot sit in an actual throne because he has no spinal cord etc to perform these functions. Also the act of sitting would indicated impotence in the sense that God desires to change into a posture of sitting, usually this comes from fatigue from standing. We couldn't even indicate even remotely that God stands or has two legs, all of which are the makeup of a corporeal being.

<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Even if we were to say the throne, like God, is incorporeal itself if God even desired to sit on this throne then much like the human creatures he has created he performs the same function as his humans which is sitting on a throne like a king to his people. Truly Allah is above any function of what he creates and has authority over the entire universe.



I agree with this. Abdullah Yusuf Ali was a very smart man and a very good Muslim. Allah's throne is real but the throne itself represents alot, including Allah's authority because Allah is over ALL that exists, means he is the Most High.
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