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DigitalStorm82
 
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Quote DigitalStorm82 Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 10:38pm

Asalamu Alaikum Everyone,

I just briefly read the posts on this topic...

Brother who asked the question based his reasoning on correct knowledge but made the wrong conclusion.

Allah has made it clear that the man of the family is to be the breadwinner.  The husband is RESPONSIBLE for taking care of the family.  But, if the wife chooses to work, whatever she earns is for her. The husband cannot claim anything from it... unless she gives it freely.

I think the mistake lies in jumping to a conclusion where the man should be preferred over a woman.

The only time this situation would apply is if there are no more jobs left in the world and there is excessive unemployment.  In that case, the man should be given preference over a married woman because it is fard on him to support his family.  In today’s society, like that of united states, it would be unfair to give preference to men over women in any condition.  There are many jobs available, and Allah is Ar-Razaaq, the provider, He will provide a job for the husbands that need the jobs.  We as Muslims should do our best to be just.  

Even if you lived in Saudi Arabia, shariah shouldn't enforce Islamic legislations on anyone because there is no compulsion in the religion of Islam. Crimes...etc. is a different story.

I understand both sides of the argument... the brother has a valid point but it is conditional to a certain situation.  The key is to find a balance in religion and in the life of this world.

If you take the Quran and carry it to the extreme it is not Islam.  The prophet warned us of those people who are extremists.

For example, Allah said to lower your gaze, if you implemented this 100% of the time... you wouldn’t be able to live in any non-Muslim country...

Yes, you should lower your gaze... but you can't go around with your head lowered all the time... if your a business owner or any type of employee you have to engage with other people, including the opposite sex...  What Allah has told us is that we should try our best and not be tempted... loosely the term "lower your gaze" can be translated as "don’t stare at the person, gaze with lust, or check them out."  That's an example of moderation.

So basically, yes, the husband is to provide for the family... but that in no way means stop the women from working.  Neither does it mean that we give them unequal status or preference in the workforce.

 

May Allah guide us all and give us proper understanding of His deen, Inshallah.

 

W’salaamz,

Hamid

Ma'Salama,
Hamid
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B.H.
 
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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2006 at 9:11am

 

SISTER FATIMA:

Brother you do realize that you are giving your personal preference name of islam.

BH: 

Respectfully sister, I am not giving a personal opinion as far as the man being responsible for providing for his family is concerned.

SISTER FATIMA:

No where in islam i have found what you are stating. Yes married man is responisible for providing the family but no way islam says to give him preference over women or unmarried guys if the other two are more capable.

BH:

If Allah commands that a man support his family inference requires that society should be built in such a way as to allow him to fulfill his requirement.  It's really no different than expecting the law to protect people's right to pray, pay zakat, read the Koran, not lie, ect.

Sister Fatima, I do not wish to be among the arrogant so perhaps you can help me with something.  It has been said that there shall be no forcing of religion on others.  However, how do you know that stealing, murder, and rape are wrong in an objective sense? Is it because Allah has forbidden these things?  If such is the case and you base your belief on the rightness and wrongness of such because you believe in Allah and punish people who perform such deeds aren't you de facto forcing your religion on others?

 

SISTER FATIMA CONTINUES:

It is exactly like forcing women to wear face covering when it is not fard, like forcing people to pray tahajjud, forcing extra fasting of three days a month or all the other hassanat which are being told. You do realize that next thing might be said is women should not be allowed to work or come out of the house, full stop, as it creates a chance of free mixing or some thing similar. You can not bend or turn Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's laws according to your will and understanding.

BH:  Please see my reply above.

Sister Fatima:

In the time of Sayyidina Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassalam) there were women in trading and there were men whose families did not have anything to eat for many days. I have never read an incident in which some thing similar to what you are pursuing was said.

BH:If people were going hungry for days I conclude that the well off were not very good Muslims since they didn't see to it their hungry brethren were fed.  Also, at this time was the Prophet in a position of authority to find a solution to the problem?

SISter Fatima:

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's laws are not equal oportunity system, we are going to be judged for our circumstances. Every1 has different capacity, capability and means to deal with thing. Our end depends on what did we do with these things.

BH:  Agreed.

Sister Fatima:

Lastly you can not reply to every question raised about this system of yours that it dont apply to you as you are not muslim. This is totally against essence of islam because islamic laws are in such a balance that when a non-muslim ponders over them without prejudice, he/she can see the justice and wisdom in them. This is what draws them to islam.

BH:

I know that the Holy Quran forbids forced conversion "no compulsion in religion" but I can't help but wonder if that involves only forced profession of faith.  I believe murder, rape, lying, cheating, ect. to be wrong because Allah says it is wrong. If there was no Allah a person could claim jungle law was fine and his opinion would be no more valid than mine.  I used to be an atheist and argued that even though I agreed that murder, lying, cheating, ect. should be regarded as wrong, when it got right down to it it was simply a matter of opinion and who happened to have the power to force their will on others at a given time.



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najamsahar
 
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Quote najamsahar Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2006 at 12:54pm

B.H

Islam is based on a construction and it is a system. Unfortunately many of us deliberate on a single aspect. To understand the wisdom, we need to see different reasons behind a particular law.

Thus far I can see that you are making an inference that women should be given preference over men in hiring and then promotions. I am not clear about three things here.

1) According to your ideal system, do you say that when women  in a similar circumstance (breadwinnersfor dependants,eg single moms,widows) are in the pool, this preference for men would not apply?

2) Honestly, do you envision women working at all in this ideal system, in postions other than female dominated ones, like gynaecologists etc.

3) When you ask for the preference, is there a clause "all other factors being equal like education/experience/skills)" or does empathy come into play?

Digitalstorm: You made a lot of sense. Can I say something. The first glance is permitted. I do not think that we need to walk with our heads hung low. The etiquette here is that when at first glance you see a non-mahram, then lower the gaze. It is the second glance which is Haram that leads to the third and then to all the mess!

Najamsahar

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Quote DigitalStorm82 Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2006 at 5:31pm
Asalamu Alaikum,

What you said is correct... the first glance is forgiven, the second is from yourself and shataan.

I think we need to stop arguing over this topic.  We should consult the scholars for a ruling on specific questions. 

Everyone has their own opinion and understanding... we should ask the sheikhs for the proper implementation of Quran and Sunnah.

Just one comment on my part though...  the punishment for crime is enforced because its harming other people.

But we should leave this argument and focus on something more constructive...

Make duah to Allah for proper understanding... and if anyone still has any questions... seek the imaam, so there is no debate or confusion anymore.

Ma'salaama,
Hamid
Ma'Salama,
Hamid
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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2006 at 7:12pm

How do we know if the Imam is right?

Also, some Muslims accept only the Holy Quran as binding.



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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2006 at 7:24pm

 

ANGELA:

Frankly BH,

The idea that women in the workplace are creating the inability for men to take care of their families is falacy. 

BH:

I have family who are businesspeople and I got my information from them.  I also have known plenty of people who have studied economics for a living say the same thing.

ANGELA:

 In a perfect world (the one in which you are talking about), God's laws would rule.  Therefore, I would be Muslimah and Shariah would be the law of the land.  People would pay their zakat, orphans and widows would be cared for and the rich would help the poor. 

BH:

The sooner the world comes to Allah the better.

.ANGELA:

One of the most wondeful aspects of your Prophet was his fairness to women and his giving them their equality in the world.  His own wife was his strength after his first vision.  She was a business owner.  Not him.  She was the financial power in the family. 

Are you saying that somehow Khadija, the wonderful and beloved wife of the Prophet, was somehow doing wrong because her business was detracting from the male traders around her?  Because she created competition and they were unable to take those goods that she traded that she was preventing men from caring for their families???

BH:

I have read some information on the Prophet's wife.  One source said that she retired from business after marrying him.

Also, what she did before marrying the Prophet and converting to Islam has nothing to do with this discussion now.

ANGELA:

That is what you're saying in a nutshell.

There are fewer women in positions of authority then men, because of lack of education in the past.  Now, when a woman reaches a place of power, its because her skills are superior to the men around her.  She has to work harder, better and more efficiently than her male counterparts to get the same recognition and often for less pay.  She is not the cause of the men below her not having opportunities, she has earned her place.

BH:

There are many factors that go into play concerning hiring and promotions and they are not necessarily all related to how good a person did/does/can do a job.  This goes for the men as well as the women.

ANGELA:

Your just blaming successful women for lazy, unsuccessful men

BH:

As I said before there are many factors that come into play regarding promotions and hiring in the workplace, many of which are not necessarily performance related issues.

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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2006 at 7:55pm

ANGELA:

Men and women are equal before God.  Therefore, even this conclusion is wrong.  If God had intended for women not to work at all, then he would have not given us the skills.  He would have revealed to Muhammed that we could not work. 

BH:

1. I never said that I was against women working per see, only when a married woman who does not need to work puts a man with a family to support out of a job who otherwise could do the job.

2. I mean no disrespect, but I could use your logic to argue smoking dope was okay, because if it wasn't Allah would not have given us the skill to make the dope with.

ANGELA:

The revelation of Men being the maintainers of women was probably more geared to the men that don't take care of their families more than it was to those men who do and fall short. 

BH: Where does it say so in the Quran?

ANGELA:

Its not an absolute, or else why would a woman be given the choice that she can give her money to her husband even though she doesn't have to.

BH:

The woman has the choice to give money, the husband does not have a choice.  The case with one is not on par with the other.

ANGELA:

I'm going to assume that these basic truths are not taught in the Campellite church anymore.  I know Islam teaches them because that has been a focus of my learning is the place of women in Islam.

BH:

Angela, I am not sure what you mean here.  Could you clarify for me?

ANGELA:

In today's age, when the average mortgage in the US is around $1100-1200 and the median income according to statistics is less than $45000.   That's $15,000 a year just in housing expenses.  Now, most families fall below that $45000.  A person that makes $10.00/hr only makes. $21,000 a year. 

Its not women in the workplace that are keeping men from earning enough...its that one income is no longer enough.  With and unemployment rate of about 5.4% we are hovering right around where we should be.  In areas like Utah, there are more jobs than people to fill them.  In places like Flint, Michigan, unemployment is almost 50%.

BH:

I agree that there are many causes for the economic problems the US suffers from today.

ANGELA:

  Its not about men vs women in the workforce.  Its about economics.  You cannot just start replacing women with more qualified men.  Because in the end, you'll create an atomosphere that is discriminatory and hostile to women who have the skills.  There will always be the question...how did she get her job?  You would essentially make it harder for the single woman to provide for herself or like me, where I had to be the main bread winner.  By enforcing a preference for married men over women.

BH:

I do not think so.  No one should have a problem with a woman who really needs the job getting it.

ANGELA:

I could use a slightly different analogy...racism.

BH:

Is it sexist to believe the man is head of the household which is taught by  the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Quran?

ANGELA:

Immigrants move into an area and take jobs from the people who have lived their for generations.  There are many who think preferential treatment should be given to native citizens before giving the jobs to immigrants.  Why?  Because they're entering the workforce is creating an inability for the locals to survive.  Why are they getting the jobs?  They are better qualified. 

BH:

No. One, often the immigrants are illegal and break the law being here.  The employer is also breaking the law hiring them.  Second, the immigrants are often paid  enough just to survive living and working here in the US and contrary to myth often do not make enough to send any money home back to Mexico or wherever they are from. I know this to be a fact from firsthand observation. Food, lodging, gas, and clothes take it all up.  Businesses who depended on natives making more money  no longer have the sales they did before and start to close down.  The businesses that take there place don't pay anything because they have to sell what their now impoverished clientel can afford which is not a lot.  Eventually, the community rots and crime, filth, and corruption take hold.

ANGELA:

The blame for a man not being able to take care of his family is totally with the man. 

BH:

In some circumstances this is no doubt true.  However, I do not believe it is so in many cases.

ANGELA:

If he's not earning enough, he needs to do what my husband is doing.  Get an education. 

BH:

This isn't a solution either.  Jobs that require an education operate according to market supply and demand like unskilled labor does.  There are only so many positions that truly require a degree available to be taken, and if everyone went to college you would still have the problems you do now. 

In fact, your suggestion would make things worse for everyone, for as more and more people get educated and certain  high paying fields get saturated with qualified people, the wages will go down because more and more people are available to do the job.  Have you ever heard where colleges allow only so many people into training programs for certain types of work so as to make sure there are not too many people trained and prevent this very situation from occurring?

ANGELA:

That's not the employers responsibility, its HIS responsibility.  If he cannot get the education or training, then he needs to look at cost of living.  He should get a smaller home, cheaper cars.  But, its up to him to make it work.  He cannot blame the woman who went to college and improved herself.  He cannot blame the Sudanese engineer who against all odds pulled himself out of abject poverty.  He can only blame himself.

BH:

I agree that people must be economical regarding their lifestyle, but it still remains that it is the employer's responsibility to pay a person enough so that that person can afford  items of common use.

ANGELA:

(On a side note BH, did you recently get passed over for a position because of a woman????)

BH:

I have lost out on promotions to both women and men.  At the same time I have beat out both women and men for promotions as well.




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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2006 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by najamsahar

B.H

Islam is based on a construction and it is a system. Unfortunately many of us deliberate on a single aspect. To understand the wisdom, we need to see different reasons behind a particular law.

Thus far I can see that you are making an inference that women should be given preference over men in hiring and then promotions. I am not clear about three things here.

1) According to your ideal system, do you say that when women  in a similar circumstance (breadwinnersfor dependants,eg single moms,widows) are in the pool, this preference for men would not apply?

2) Honestly, do you envision women working at all in this ideal system, in postions other than female dominated ones, like gynaecologists etc.

3) When you ask for the preference, is there a clause "all other factors being equal like education/experience/skills)" or does empathy come into play?

Digitalstorm: You made a lot of sense. Can I say something. The first glance is permitted. I do not think that we need to walk with our heads hung low. The etiquette here is that when at first glance you see a non-mahram, then lower the gaze. It is the second glance which is Haram that leads to the third and then to all the mess!

Najamsahar

1.  Any woman who had to be the breadwinner in the family would be exempt from my plan.

2.  Theoretically, I don't have a problem with women working in any field or position.  I just know that according to the law of economics that there are going to be jobs that pay so low that only one person can survive on it.  I think that the jobs that pay enough to feed a family should be reserved for the men who have familes to support.

It isn't that the women are inferior  or anything like that.  It's the fact that the Quran has placed responsibility on the man to support his family and not the woman.  Women have shown that they work just as hard and are as smart as any man.  No one is doubting their inherent abilities or worth.

3.  Could you be more clear on question 3?



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