Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Groups – Men (Brothers)
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Culture & Community : Groups – Men (Brothers)
Message Icon Topic: Yet another question about marriage Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 6 Next >>
Author Message
B.H.
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 June 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 116
Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2006 at 7:31am

You do realize that having so many women in the workforce will put a lot of men in a position to where they can't support a family on what they make, and either the wife will have to work or the family will have to go on welfare.

 

 

IP IP Logged
B.H.
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 June 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 116
Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2006 at 7:37am
Originally posted by fatima

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

I tell you an incident from time of second caliph Umar (ra) which might show the stand of islam. He needed a judge for his courts and after considering many sahabah (ra), he appointed a sahabia (ra). I am sure in that time there was no application process, he must have thought about capable people and He chose a woman.

Yes a man is responsible for the family but if a woman is applying too and she is more suitable for the position, it should be given to her. Islam does not ask women not to work, so if they chose to work, they should be judged fairly because Allah swt is Just and He likes Just decisions.

wassalam

 

Perhaps so.  However, did Umar put men with families to support in the unemployment line? 

Again,  I understand where a woman who has lost her husband has to work and make enough to support herself and any children she may have.

I am just saying that anytime a married woman who really doesn't need a job enters the workforce she is potentially taking away a position a man could get and support a family with.

I'm not trying to keep the women from being happy or earn a little more money.  There are just practical considerations that have to be considered. 

I look at it from a different perspective than most I guess.  Allah commanded that the married men provide for their families.  This is our duty handed to us by Allah, and it is only right that we be allowed to be put in a position where we can fulfill that obligation. 

 



Edited by B.H.
IP IP Logged
fatima
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 04 August 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 979
Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2006 at 12:57pm

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

well Umar (ra) was the first to start benefit system like many other great firsts he introduced to create one of the great societies.

Now on the opinion about if the husband can afford all the basics then i too think that is alhamdulillah the great blessing. Sister can just be home, learn deen inshaAllah and raise a good muslim ummah. But Allah swt allowed or left it on women to decide so there is some wisdom behind it. There is a hadith which states that treat your women well as they some time feel like slaves. Because they have to take husband's view in almost every thing and they feel bound. So i think when Allah swt left some ways they must be for some good reason.

Like most other things if we try to make laws the way we think are best, it could lead to complications. What if some1 sart saying about education of women as such a high percentage does not use the qualifications. I am sure you can see where i am going with this. We are been told the forbidden, the allowed and the best option. What you saying comes under best option but best is not reachable by every1.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
IP IP Logged
sinful servant
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 19 October 2005
Location: South Africa
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Quote sinful servant Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 1:02am
B.H. again if we lived in a perfect world then what u r saying makes sense.or rather let me ask you how would you go about trying to make sure that men who have families to support get the jobs over women who dont?
IP IP Logged
najamsahar
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 21 June 2006
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 151
Quote najamsahar Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 6:16am

BH

 

I do not know which country you picture this preference happening in. Shall we do some wishful thinking? Lets take the US/Canada as a first example. If we put your theory into the picture, it would apply only to the muslim women, non-muslims ofcourse will not agree to this. So, As of today, in 2006

 How many muslim women work? You say I would guess 40%, but since you say “so many”lets take it as 60% for sake of this argument.

How much of the workforce do they comprise of in the US and Canada? My guess here is 10%.

What are the usual professions that muslim women opt for? Medicine (usually general practice, dentistry, gynaecology, pediatrics, Nursing), teaching, IT, research, working in stores, running businesses, Office work including clerical work etc, daycare providers. In many of the above professions, they are not even a threat to their male counterparts as

1)men traditionally do not want to have these careers.

2)some of the above professions rely on individual aptitude, a muslim woman lawyer taken off work does not mean that a man will be filled in it. The law firm may simply not have that position anymore as this post was unique to the lady. Same for a clinic.

 

 This leaves us with work which men and women both like to do, IT etc. Let’s eliminate the 10% of muslim women that form this workforce. How much will it help muslim men get promotions and free up the hiring competition? I would say less than 1% because of the rate of unemployment and ability to get cheap labour from abroad. I dont think your suggestion will give you the result you want viz, job security and job growth for men who are family supporters. 

 

In an different scenario, it will not work either. Lets see a country that works something like your theory.

 

In Saudi Arabia, about 60% of university graduates are women. They account for 2% of the workforce. Most women do not work for family reasons.

Even with such little competition from women, Saudi men have steadily rising rates of unemployment. Among other reasons, mindsets and poor work ethics drive employers to hire workers from abroad This forced the state to put a “saudiazation law” which entails that 20% of the workforce should be Saudi. This did not solve the problem either as many companies hire extra local people in non-important positions like security gaurds and the top posts still go to skilled immigrant workers

 

A job has to be done and the employer will choose the person most suitable to do it. Reservations and preferences do not work. Ultimately the cream gets hired and then it rises to the top.

 

IP IP Logged
B.H.
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 June 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 116
Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 12:29pm

The last two posters have made very good points.  However, I will say this:  Allah in his Quran tells us how the the world is supposed to work and not we tell Allah and the Quran how things are supposed to work.  In the world of the unbelievers , many ideals found in the Quran are considered "impractical" because they (unbelieving) are wicked and unwilling to  make the sacrifices necessary sometime (longterm or short term) that comes with obedience to Allah.

If the Saudi businessmen cannot make their Saudi employees work, it is because the businessmen do not know how to run their companies.  They lack the discipline and drive to be where they are and have no one to blame but themselves.

As for the foreign workers, I suspect that their being employed has more to do with much cheaper wage rates than "lazy" Saudi employees. "Lazy" is a relative term and I bet if someone came along who would work longer for half of what the current foreign workers work at they would be regarded as "lazy" and sent back home to the Phillipines or wherever they are from in a heartbeat.  Remember the Quran says that people should have access to items of common use, and a businessman should not mind paying wages that allow a man to afford such things as a cost of doing business.

I'll respond more later.

 



Edited by B.H.
IP IP Logged
B.H.
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 June 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 116
Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 7:37pm

I have thought about this for a while and have a possible solution.

Anytime a position is open and a qualified married man with a family is available to fill it it should be given to him over a woman who is married and has a husband who can support her.

If a woman holds a job that requires a special skill, she should be able to continue to hold the job until a qualified married man is available to be trained and/or already knows how to do the job.

If a woman does not have a husband to support her but she has children, the above should not apply. 

Personally, I think that an unmarried man should give deference to a married man when it comes to promotions, ect. though he should be allowed to hold a job paying enough for him to afford what is of common use.  I think the same should apply to an unmarried woman without a family.

If the economic situation does not allow such through means of the private sector, let all who need it have access to zakat.

IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 7:55pm

This is ludacris.  Who are you to decide that just because my husband works I should be passed over for a position because I'm a woman?  How do you know if my husband's income is sufficient for our needs? 

Let me put it this way.  If YOUR system was in place.  I would be destitute with a husband who could not walk.

My husband was the main bread winner.  He worked very hard, but it wasn't enough.  I had more education than he did.  So I worked too and often found jobs equal to or better than his, these enabled our survival.  However, when he hurt his back, my income alone was not sufficient to support our family, but it was enough for us to keep afloat. 

Now, according to your system.  My job would have been given to the male equivalent who applied at the same time.  Why?  Not because he was more qualified (in your proposal both are equally qualified) but because he was a man.  We both have families, but according to you, I didn't need the job as bad, because I'm married.

Now, in your senario, I would not have my job.  John Smith would have my job, because he has a wife and kid.  Not to mention, John is capable of working in a factory and I am not.  But because he and I both applied, he was given preference. 

Now, when My husband was hurt...I had no job to cushion the blow.  I would have had to spend weeks looking for a job, being passed over time and time again because preference is given first to men with families.  Because I shouldn't have to work in a perfect society.

I would love not to have to work, but You cannot discriminate against a candidate because of sex.  You must solely chose on qualifications.

Oh and lastly, why should sex be any kind of factor?  As an employer, I would prefer to have the best candidate for the position.  This will strengthen my company.  Its not about the man with the family, its about the quality of work.  If he can't meet the requirements, they he can't have the job.  He wants the better job, he needs to have the better skills.  That's economics.

IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 6 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com