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najamsahar
 
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Quote najamsahar Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2006 at 1:58am

BH

Q 3) when we assume that a man should be given preference over a woman as he is the breadwinner, in this scene are the two candidates, one man and the second woman,  equally  qualified? Or if the man has a little bit lacking he is still given preference because his responsibilty comes into the reckoning?

Najamsahar

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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2006 at 5:04am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Brother what you mentioned about there being no compulsion in religion in case of pronouncing your faith, i totally agree. If you do a bit of forum search you would realize that for past few months i am banging my head against the wall regarding clarification of this particular ayaah. This ayaah was revealed for stating that no one should be forced in proclaiming the shahadah. If you read major tafsir books thats what it says in the explanation of this verse.

No one in previous generations has taken the meaning that if some1 wants to forsake a part of religion you should let them because there is no compulsion in religion. We can start from the time of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw), there is a hadith which states that 'if it was not for women and children, i would burn down the houses of people who dont come for congregational prayer'. Congregational prayer is not fard but still sahabah (ra) encouraged each other to attend. Second incident is of 'uhud' i think, when two muslims did not go to war, they were not among hypocrites but were just lazying around. When muslims came back, Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) told rest of muslims not to talk to them. Then they asked for forgivness and it was granted. Now Jihad is also fard kifaya (an obligation which if few people take part in gets lifted from rest of ummah). First caliph Abubakr (ra) went to war against people who refused to pay zakah.

Now when i said to you that please do not give your personal preference the name of islam, it was not about men being bread winners, it was about your system or plan of giving preference to family men over rest. Brother no one is doubting your sincerity, its just that the matters which are left open by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala should not be messed about with. I give you example of taaliban (inshaAllah you wont get offended, i am not comparing you to them, its just an example), they made women wear face covering which is not fard, they stopped the schooling of young girls. I am sure there must have been a good reasoning in thier minds about this. They might have taken a rule of no free mixing, or its haram to look at member of opposite sex, now if women were out and about, it creates a chance so why not make them wear niqaab. Or if girls get educated they might want to work, again working with men, again might lead to haram. Now they put two and two together and came out with twenty two. Yes islam has told the haram and anything leading to haram is forbidden too but those things are stated.

If you start doing that to every thing, we are going to make this society very suffocating. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has told that its best for women to stay home but it is not being made a compulsion. Because some women might have to come out and work, some might want to. Allah swt has made this religion a true nature of human being. Some of us can take the strict ruling rest cant, so it is alhamdulillah flexible enough to take every thing in.

Lastly you asked how do you know if an imam is good. Every1 should themselves have basic knowledge of  Holy Quran. Ask Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala for guidance and keep sincere. I am sure if you listen to any shiekh, you do get this feeling in your heart that mashaAllah he is good, if you still remember what he said few days later and then when you about to do some thing wrong and you remember about that lecture of advice and you back away from sin. Then yeah seek knowledge from that shiekh but main thing is put your trust in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Another thing is dont limit yourself with only one scholar. Take good from wherever you can.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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najamsahar
 
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Quote najamsahar Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2006 at 9:44am

Fatima,

The point you are making in the clarification of Ayaat "la ikraha fiddeen" is very valid. All the mufassirren agree to this and somehow in most discussions people use this to say that islamic law is not madatory and things like that.

Najamsahar

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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2006 at 9:54am

Originally posted by B.H.

ANGELA:

Immigrants move into an area and take jobs from the people who have lived their for generations.  There are many who think preferential treatment should be given to native citizens before giving the jobs to immigrants.  Why?  Because they're entering the workforce is creating an inability for the locals to survive.  Why are they getting the jobs?  They are better qualified. 

BH:

No. One, often the immigrants are illegal and break the law being here.  The employer is also breaking the law hiring them.  Second, the immigrants are often paid  enough just to survive living and working here in the US and contrary to myth often do not make enough to send any money home back to Mexico or wherever they are from. I know this to be a fact from firsthand observation. Food, lodging, gas, and clothes take it all up.  Businesses who depended on natives making more money  no longer have the sales they did before and start to close down.  The businesses that take there place don't pay anything because they have to sell what their now impoverished clientel can afford which is not a lot.  Eventually, the community rots and crime, filth, and corruption take hold.

BH,

Are you that nearsighted?  I said Immigrant, not Illegal Alien.  I'm talking about LEGAL immigration.  My grandmother's family had to escort her back and forth to the movie theater and soda shop because the Americans in the area were mad that the Welsh, Eastern Europeans and Italians were taking their jobs.  That was in the 1940s, not the 1920s.  Its still happening today with the legal immigrants.  And not every Latino immigrant is illegal.  Many have done it the legal way, but they are discriminated against because of the 12 million illegals.

That's the point I'm trying to make.  A hard working man from El Salvador comes here legally and tries to get a good job, he's discriminated against because racist Americans assume since he's latino and doesn't speak very good english, he's illegal.  However, on the flip side I work in an engineering firm now.  (recent job change)

Of the 13 people in my office.  6 are born here in the US, 1 of those his parents were born in China and moved here before his birth, and another is Latino who was born and raised in the US but has family in Mexico.  That's 7 of 13 jobs, more than 50% that have gone to foreign born but LEGAL immigrants.  And we have an engineering position open now.  Roughly half the applicants have foreign educations in India, Puerto Rico, Germany, Japan or were born there and studied here.

Now, its an exact analogy to what you are saying about women.  These men are taking jobs from the local engineers not women.  I'm the only woman in this office.  On my company list there are only 5 of us, including myself. 

In my last company, there were 4 women (including me) and 50-60 men.  This has been the same for every well paying company I've worked for except for education.  The schools I worked for were about 50/50 on the sex of the teachers, counselors and caretakers.  However, if you looked at the top executives, most were men with a woman here and there.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/98/2.19.98/Blau_report .html

http://www.workopolis.com/content/resource/usablenews/women. html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/03/ 02/MNG7RHGVVD1.DTL

In the end, the job market is adjusting to women.  5.4% nationally BH, that's all unemployment is in this country.  Women only make up 47% of the workforce in the US and Unemployment is equal for both sexes, but women make less, have few executive jobs and less job security.  Check out these statistics below.  Notice countries where women are not the major part of the workforce. (On and note that when they breakdown by sex the unemployment rate, that is only among active workers.  If a woman is a homemaker and not looking for work, she is not counted into unemployment statistics, even if she's previously held a job)

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762531.html

 

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najamsahar
 
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Quote najamsahar Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2006 at 10:57am

 

BH

The ayat is 4:34 The qawwam mentioned here is translated as "one who looks after the affairs of the other in his absence, as if his own"

To follow the the point I am trying to make we need to keep in mind that the islamic law of inheritance. the share of the female is always half that of the male. The brother gets twice what the sister gets and the wife gets half of what her husband gets.

Islam has not prohibited women to work, If her husband is in agreement. Islam has not biased men over women or vice versa in any matter unless there is a very obvious reason. Eg: breastfeeding, etc etc

This is the quranic law.I hope we can agree at face value as this is from quran.

 This is what shariah says about the muslim womans interests.

1)She has no need to work as the husband is the provider. The husband shall provide a reasonable standard of living according to his income and how other women of a similar economic group are living. The man shall marry when he is able to provide such.

2)I am not sure about this, as I cannot provide the reference right now, I can say it is from Imam Nawawi, The husband cannot enforce her to do chores in the house. She is the guardian of the house and children.

3)Till she gets married, her family, father, brother should be the providers.

4)In the event her husband passes away, her right is that for a year she should be maintained at the marital residence at a similar standard of living that she had with her  husband.

After a year, she is still not obligated to work for herself or her children. She has to depend on a Mahram relative for sustenance, in the absence of this, anyone in her husbands family should come forward and take responsibilty. In the absence of this is anyone in the society.

Widows are considered a weak part of the society and usually referred to in the Quran along with orphans. We have been exhorted to be kind and just when dealing with these two categories because their situation has been thrust on them for no fault of theirs.

5)If the husband has been killed, blood money should be paid to the wife and dependants.

6)Whatever she earn is hers alone.

7) In the US/Canada, the average muslim death is associated with about 10,000$(?). There are funeral costs, hospital co-pays etc etc. The muslim will calculated as follows, you pay the funeral costs, then the debts (which includes the maintenance of the wife for a year) and then pay the inheritors.

The basic flaw in your system is this

You want a preference based on the degree of responsibilty that the applicant(man) has and this responsibilty is God given.

However you also want to shirk this responsibility when it comes to someone elses wife/widow. You are doing this by saying that "if the woman has a dependant,she should be given priority too"

Islam does not recognise the woman as a provider in any circumstance.

Secondly, Islam is about rights and responsibilities. If men start getting a prefernce because they are the breadwinners, then they get the responsibility of taking care of women who are without the qawwam. So if a mans female relative has no one to take care of her, he will take care of her affairs and if she has no money, he will provide for her!

You are doing a pick and choose here. You want a part of Islam but then do not want to implement another part associated with it.


We women are given half of everything because the ones who are getting twice of our inheritance are going to be our providers for life. From fathers to sons to brothers and uncles and if she has no one, then the society.

If you see many women have argued against this idea of your. We know that we have to fend for ourselves. Life is hard wherever you go, NorthAmerica, Saudi Arabia, India or China!

Another issue is that in a low paying job this rule will not apply. How low do we go? What are some lowpaying jobs? Warehousing, labour, construction, cleaners? many of these jobs are unsuitable for women as they are based on physical strenght. And today a man working on this level is also taking care of his family and providing for them and women can be threat to his livelihood too. So where does it end?

If you see many women have argued against this idea of your. We know that we have to fend for ourselves. Life is hard wherever you go, NorthAmerica, Saudi Arabia, India or China!

At all economic levels, there will be people who can get by with what they have and those that want more. You can see the greed for more that drove wealthy people to resort to cheating and robbing when they already had far too much to last their life.

Imagine a wife with a husband who is no longer able to provide for her. She has the right to leave him. But how many women do this? Most of us brace up and start providing. Whats wrong with this. Granted that this is a Quranic right, but what is the better option? To be kind and keep the family together or be up and away? What will please Allah more?

In conclusion, BH,

If we did delve into the Quran and took your inference, seeing the above, how much would it help you? You may get jobs a tad easier, but then women are going to start demanding their rights and how easy will life be for men? Imagine providing for 2-3 women instead of one that fends for herself!

Do you agree to my first reply about the competition thinning by 1% if we put your idea in place?

Najamsahar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2006 at 10:25pm

NAJAMSAHAR:

BH

The ayat is 4:34 The qawwam mentioned here is translated as "one who looks after the affairs of the other in his absence, as if his own"

To follow the the point I am trying to make we need to keep in mind that the islamic law of inheritance. the share of the female is always half that of the male. The brother gets twice what the sister gets and the wife gets half of what her husband gets.

Islam has not prohibited women to work, If her husband is in agreement. Islam has not biased men over women or vice versa in any matter unless there is a very obvious reason. Eg: breastfeeding, etc etc

This is the quranic law.I hope we can agree at face value as this is from quran.

 This is what shariah says about the muslim womans interests.

1)She has no need to work as the husband is the provider. The husband shall provide a reasonable standard of living according to his income and how other women of a similar economic group are living. The man shall marry when he is able to provide such.

2)I am not sure about this, as I cannot provide the reference right now, I can say it is from Imam Nawawi, The husband cannot enforce her to do chores in the house. She is the guardian of the house and children.

3)Till she gets married, her family, father, brother should be the providers.

4)In the event her husband passes away, her right is that for a year she should be maintained at the marital residence at a similar standard of living that she had with her  husband.

After a year, she is still not obligated to work for herself or her children. She has to depend on a Mahram relative for sustenance, in the absence of this, anyone in her husbands family should come forward and take responsibilty. In the absence of this is anyone in the society.

Widows are considered a weak part of the society and usually referred to in the Quran along with orphans. We have been exhorted to be kind and just when dealing with these two categories because their situation has been thrust on them for no fault of theirs.

5)If the husband has been killed, blood money should be paid to the wife and dependants.

6)Whatever she earn is hers alone.

 

 

BH:

Greetings and Salutations!

Could you please provide me with a Quranic reference that states the brother, father, or nearest male kinsman is responsible for taking care of a woman with no husband?

I was not aware this was in the Quran, and do admit such changes things quite a bit.

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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2006 at 10:42pm

NAJAMSAHAR:

 

You want a preference based on the degree of responsibilty that the applicant(man) has and this responsibilty is God given.

However you also want to shirk this responsibility when it comes to someone elses wife/widow. You are doing this by saying that "if the woman has a dependant,she should be given priority too"

Islam does not recognise the woman as a provider in any circumstance.

BH:

I was not aware of this when I started the discussion.  I accept the correction but wish for you to site the Surah and verse for me so I can see it myself. 

 

NAJAMSAHAR:

Secondly, Islam is about rights and responsibilities. If men start getting a prefernce because they are the breadwinners, then they get the responsibility of taking care of women who are without the qawwam. So if a mans female relative has no one to take care of her, he will take care of her affairs and if she has no money, he will provide for her!

BH:

I agree that for consistency's sake such would have ot be the case.

NAJAMSAHAR:

You are doing a pick and choose here. You want a part of Islam but then do not want to implement another part associated with it.

BH:

Yes, I guess I am guilty of doing such, but not on purpose.  I was not aware that a man was responsible for women other than his wife.

NAJAMSAHAR:


We women are given half of everything because the ones who are getting twice of our inheritance are going to be our providers for life. From fathers to sons to brothers and uncles and if she has no one, then the society.

BH:

Yes.

If you see many women have argued against this idea of your. We know that we have to fend for ourselves. Life is hard wherever you go, NorthAmerica, Saudi Arabia, India or China!

BH:

You're not kidding about life being hard.

NAJAMSAHAR:

Another issue is that in a low paying job this rule will not apply. How low do we go? What are some lowpaying jobs? Warehousing, labour, construction, cleaners? many of these jobs are unsuitable for women as they are based on physical strenght. And today a man working on this level is also taking care of his family and providing for them and women can be threat to his livelihood too. So where does it end?

BH:

I think I see what you are saying.  A man may be working hard and just barely able to support his wife and child, and then all of a sudden he has an invalid sister need his support to.

NAJAMSAHAR:

If you see many women have argued against this idea of your. We know that we have to fend for ourselves. Life is hard wherever you go, NorthAmerica, Saudi Arabia, India or China!

BH:

Life is hard.

NAJAMSAHAR:

At all economic levels, there will be people who can get by with what they have and those that want more. You can see the greed for more that drove wealthy people to resort to cheating and robbing when they already had far too much to last their life.

BH:

You're not kidding about this.  It also seems you have to be a liar to get a management job these days. 

NAJAMSAHAR:

Imagine a wife with a husband who is no longer able to provide for her. She has the right to leave him. But how many women do this? Most of us brace up and start providing. Whats wrong with this. Granted that this is a Quranic right, but what is the better option? To be kind and keep the family together or be up and away? What will please Allah more?

BH:

to love her husband and family and stay, though it might be tough on all.

NAJAMSAHAR:

In conclusion, BH,

If we did delve into the Quran and took your inference, seeing the above, how much would it help you? You may get jobs a tad easier, but then women are going to start demanding their rights and how easy will life be for men? Imagine providing for 2-3 women instead of one that fends for herself!

BH:

I see that you still have a potentially large problem yet to be dealt with.

NAJAMSAHAR:

Do you agree to my first reply about the competition thinning by 1% if we put your idea in place?

Najamsahar

 

BH:

Maybe.  I am not sure yet.

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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2006 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by najamsahar

BH

Q 3) when we assume that a man should be given preference over a woman as he is the breadwinner, in this scene are the two candidates, one man and the second woman,  equally  qualified? Or if the man has a little bit lacking he is still given preference because his responsibilty comes into the reckoning?

Najamsahar

I would say that for jobs that you had to go in knowing right off what you had to do (like a doctor) then qualifactions should count.

there are many positions where you can get trained for the job in a few days after being hired.  I am not so sure about them

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