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Message Icon Topic: Yet another question about marriage Post Reply Post New Topic
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B.H.
 
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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2006 at 10:39pm

 

ANGELA

This is ludacris. 

BH

No it isn't.  The Quran makes it clear that the man is to be the one responsible for taking care of the family.  Since that is Allah's command the laws of an Islamic society should be fashioned in such a way as to see that it happens.

If I am not mistaken, you are a Mormon, correct?  This discussion is moot regarding you because Islamic law would not apply to you.

ANGELA:

Who are you to decide that just because my husband works I should be passed over for a position because I'm a woman?  How do you know if my husband's income is sufficient for our needs? 

BH:

My friend, I didn't decide that a man was the one responsible for his family.  As for your husband's wages, he probably would be able to make enough for you and him and any children you have if the married women were not in the workforce.  Labor wages would go up. I know that conventional wisdom states it was the feminist movement that got women their jobs and to some degree it is true.  However, it was the businessmen behind it for the most part---they wanted women in the workforce thinking they would work for much cheaper wages than men. History has proven this true and not only do the women work for much less it drives men's wages down too because of the increase in competition for jobs.

My grandfathers both worked and were responsible for bringing in the paycheck.  They were factory workers and could afford a home, a car, and raise children on what they made.  Now, where I live a man and a wife could work in a plant doing almost the same thing and still not be as well off as my grandparents were.  My father was a teacher and he was the only one who worked.  He didn't make a lot of money teaching school but still managed to have a home for his family, a good used car, ect.

 

ANGELA:

Let me put it this way.  If YOUR system was in place.  I would be destitute with a husband who could not walk.

BH:

No. One, you are not a Muslim yet and therefore Islamic law cannot be bound on you.  Two, you are in a situation different than what I was speaking of earlier-and  I am ashamed that I did not think of the circumstance you are in where the husband can't work due to health issues.  I would have no problem with you working (assuming you become a Muslimah one day) and moving as far up the ladder as you can because you have to be the breadwinner.  You are in a situation where your husband simply through no fault of his own cannot make a living for both of you.

ANGELA:

My husband was the main bread winner.  He worked very hard, but it wasn't enough.

BH:

I understand and believe everything you say.  However, the reason he wasn't able to do so is because of the economic factors I mentioned above.

ANGELA:

  I had more education than he did.  So I worked too and often found jobs equal to or better than his, these enabled our survival.  However, when he hurt his back, my income alone was not sufficient to support our family, but it was enough for us to keep afloat. 

BH:

One, you are not a Muslim and therefore cannot be bound by Islamic law.  Two, your circumstance is different than what I posted about earlier.  I have no problem with a Muslimah working and going as far as she can up the career ladder if her husband through illness cannot work.

 

ANGELA:

Now, according to your system.  My job would have been given to the male equivalent who applied at the same time.  Why?  Not because he was more qualified (in your proposal both are equally qualified) but because he was a man. 

BH:

I explicitely stated that a married man should have priority over even an unmarried man, though I believe that an unmarried man or unmarried woman should be able to earn enough to take care of their basic needs.

ANGELA:

We both have families, but according to you, I didn't need the job as bad, because I'm married.

BH:

True.  But I did not know of your special circumstance either.

ANGELA:

Now, in your senario, I would not have my job.  John Smith would have my job, because he has a wife and kid.  Not to mention, John is capable of working in a factory and I am not.  But because he and I both applied, he was given preference. 

BH:

If John were a Muslim with a family to support and you were a Muslimah who had a husband able to work and take care of his family, yes that would be the case.  True, John could be told of a factory job and instructed to go get it. this may save your position for a time until another married man comes along who can do yours, assuming your husband could be the breadwinner.  As such is not the case for you right now, your job would be safe.

ANGELA:

Now, when My husband was hurt...I had no job to cushion the blow.  I would have had to spend weeks looking for a job, being passed over time and time again because preference is given first to men with families.  Because I shouldn't have to work in a perfect society.

BH:

Assuming you are a revert in the situation, I have no objection to you working because your husband cannot.

ANGELA:

I would love not to have to work, but You cannot discriminate against a candidate because of sex. 

BH:

I am only trying to find out a way to implement the laws of Allah in a practical way. Allah has stated that a husband must work to support his wife and children while a muslimah can work and spend her money on herself.  I could gripe about this but I will not.  Why?   Allah willed it to be such and I knew that when I got married that was a sacrifice I was going to have to be willing to make, just as a woman who chose to get married knows that she is going to have to make some sacrifices on her own---one of which is that the jobs paying enough to support a family with are going to go to the married men.

ANGELA:

You must solely chose on qualifications.

BH:

Theoretically, anyone can be trained for a job--it is just a matter of someone teaching you how to do something.  I seriously doubt that out of the thousands of men out there one can't be found to do a certain type of job.  I never said pull all the married women out of their jobs and replace them with married men overnight anyway.

ANGELA:

Oh and lastly, why should sex be any kind of factor?

BH:

Sex isn't the factor.  Allah is.

ANGELA: 

As an employer, I would prefer to have the best candidate for the position. 

BH:

True.  The employer better see to it that the married man gets the training he needs to do the job right

ANGELA:

This will strengthen my company. 

BH:

Yes, following Allah's law no doubt leads to blessings.  However, if the employer does not follow Quranic ethics he will no doubt receive a curse from Allah.

ANGELA:

Its not about the man with the family, its about the quality of work.

BH:

It is about neither.  It is about following Allah and pleasing him.  If a man was a cheat in his business yet was very prosperous, even to the point of running his honest competitors out of business, would that still make what he did right? 

I say that the businessman better see to it that the married man gets the training he needs or finds a married man out of his applicant pool that can be trained to do the job.  Keep in mind I never said to just yank the women out and replace them with married men overnight.  I said replace the women who have husbands who are able to support them and only when a married man is able to fill in the replacement.

ANGELA

  If he can't meet the requirements, they he can't have the job.  He wants the better job, he needs to have the better skills.  That's economics.

BH:

Agreed.

 

 



Edited by B.H.
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 2:44am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Brother you do realize that you are giving your personal preference name of islam. No where in islam i have found what you are stating. Yes married man is responisible for providing the family but no way islam says to give him preference over women or unmarried guys if the other two are more capable.

It is exactly like forcing women to wear face covering when it is not fard, like forcing people to pray tahajjud, forcing extra fasting of three days a month or all the other hassanat which are being told. You do realize that next thing might be said is women should not be allowed to work or come out of the house, full stop, as it creates a chance of free mixing or some thing similar. You can not bend or turn Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's laws according to your will and understanding.

In the time of Sayyidina Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassalam) there were women in trading and there were men whose families did not have anything to eat for many days. I have never read an incident in which some thing similar to what you are pursuing was said.

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's laws are not equal oportunity system, we are going to be judged for our circumstances. Every1 has different capacity, capability and means to deal with thing. Our end depends on what did we do with these things.

Lastly you can not reply to every question raised about this system of yours that it dont apply to you as you are not muslim. This is totally against essence of islam because islamic laws are in such a balance that when a non-muslim ponders over them without prejudice, he/she can see the justice and wisdom in them. This is what draws them to islam.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 8:39am

Frankly BH,

The idea that women in the workplace are creating the inability for men to take care of their families is falacy.  In a perfect world (the one in which you are talking about), God's laws would rule.  Therefore, I would be Muslimah and Shariah would be the law of the land.  People would pay their zakat, orphans and widows would be cared for and the rich would help the poor.  But, you cannot justify your statements.

One of the most wondeful aspects of your Prophet was his fairness to women and his giving them their equality in the world.  His own wife was his strength after his first vision.  She was a business owner.  Not him.  She was the financial power in the family. 

Are you saying that somehow Khadija, the wonderful and beloved wife of the Prophet, was somehow doing wrong because her business was detracting from the male traders around her?  Because she created competition and they were unable to take those goods that she traded that she was preventing men from caring for their families???

That is what you're saying in a nutshell.

There are fewer women in positions of authority then men, because of lack of education in the past.  Now, when a woman reaches a place of power, its because her skills are superior to the men around her.  She has to work harder, better and more efficiently than her male counterparts to get the same recognition and often for less pay.  She is not the cause of the men below her not having opportunities, she has earned her place.

Your just blaming successful women for lazy, unsuccessful men. 

ANGELA:

Oh and lastly, why should sex be any kind of factor?

BH:

Sex isn't the factor.  Allah is.

Men and women are equal before God.  Therefore, even this conclusion is wrong.  If God had intended for women not to work at all, then he would have not given us the skills.  He would have revealed to Muhammed that we could not work. 

The revelation of Men being the maintainers of women was probably more geared to the men that don't take care of their families more than it was to those men who do and fall short.  Its not an absolute, or else why would a woman be given the choice that she can give her money to her husband even though she doesn't have to.

I'm going to assume that these basic truths are not taught in the Campellite church anymore.  I know Islam teaches them because that has been a focus of my learning is the place of women in Islam.

In today's age, when the average mortgage in the US is around $1100-1200 and the median income according to statistics is less than $45000.   That's $15,000 a year just in housing expenses.  Now, most families fall below that $45000.  A person that makes $10.00/hr only makes. $21,000 a year. 

Its not women in the workplace that are keeping men from earning enough...its that one income is no longer enough.  With and unemployment rate of about 5.4% we are hovering right around where we should be.  In areas like Utah, there are more jobs than people to fill them.  In places like Flint, Michigan, unemployment is almost 50%.

Its not about men vs women in the workforce.  Its about economics.  You cannot just start replacing women with more qualified men.  Because in the end, you'll create an atomosphere that is discriminatory and hostile to women who have the skills.  There will always be the question...how did she get her job?  You would essentially make it harder for the single woman to provide for herself or like me, where I had to be the main bread winner.  By enforcing a preference for married men over women.

I could use a slightly different analogy...racism.

Immigrants move into an area and take jobs from the people who have lived their for generations.  There are many who think preferential treatment should be given to native citizens before giving the jobs to immigrants.  Why?  Because they're entering the workforce is creating an inability for the locals to survive.  Why are they getting the jobs?  They are better qualified. 

The blame for a man not being able to take care of his family is totally with the man.  If he's not earning enough, he needs to do what my husband is doing.  Get an education.  That's not the employers responsibility, its HIS responsibility.  If he cannot get the education or training, then he needs to look at cost of living.  He should get a smaller home, cheaper cars.  But, its up to him to make it work.  He cannot blame the woman who went to college and improved herself.  He cannot blame the Sudanese engineer who against all odds pulled himself out of abject poverty.  He can only blame himself.

 

(On a side note BH, did you recently get passed over for a position because of a woman????)



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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 9:46am

Plus it also implies that a man would work harder...

Besides economics driving everyone to work, both men and women, what happened to women who stayed home.  Many men, in our looser society left their wives, left their responsibilites. Especially around 40 or so.. that midlife crisis. These women, without the job skills were left destitute. You can have an education but after 20 years it does little good trying to get into the job market. Women look at it as an insurance policy.

Like my sister. She teaches. Her husband has a drinking problem. Sad to say. to protect the kids she may have to leave him. Having the job  skills allows her to do this with a lot less struggle. If she had not been working all these years she would be hard pressed to be able to support her kids. And thus either be forced to be poverty-stricken or stay in a bad situation.  

Since around the world poverty is a majority of women and children, something is wrong. This is universally all over.  Clearly if Allah's requirements were being fulfilled this would not be the case.

I think that to regulate any system on a large scale is really impossible.

Plus I remember reading about alot of young men in Saudi Arabia were not employable because all's they had were religious schooling. Where of course that is good, it has no "practical" skills in the job world. So how do you work for a company when you don't have the skills or knowledge?  Plus if you are really wealthy, why work anyways? This may be changing.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 10:23am

There are a few countries like Saudi where women are not out in the workforce in the numbers as they are here in the US.  And those places have higher poverty levels and higher unemployment rates.  Its not about women keeping me from work.  Its about people bettering themselves in the workplace.

I'm sorry to hear about your sister Hayfa.  I remember that was one point they stressed at the Women's Shelter I worked at.  Many abusive husband's keep their wives at home and out of work so they cannot leave them.  Then when the woman finally does leave the abusive situation, she has no skills, no experience and no financial cushion.  I know a woman who was a stay at home Mom for 26 years.  3 of her 5 children were grown, but she still had two left at home.  One night, her husband turned to her and said, "I don't love you, I never have."  The next morning he was gone.

She had no job, no money of her own, and a 25 year old Music degree. 

Now she never needed to work, but do you think anyone gave her a job that supported her family?  He left her with a mortgage and two children.  And minimum wage doesn't cut it. 

Saying that a woman shouldn't have a good job just because men are supposed to be the maintainers is very short sighted. 

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Quote mariyah Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Hayfa

Plus it also implies that a man would work harder...

Besides economics driving everyone to work, both men and women, what happened to women who stayed home.  Many men, in our looser society left their wives, left their responsibilites. Especially around 40 or so.. that midlife crisis. These women, without the job skills were left destitute. You can have an education but after 20 years it does little good trying to get into the job market. Women look at it as an insurance policy.

Like my sister. She teaches. Her husband has a drinking problem. Sad to say. to protect the kids she may have to leave him. Having the job  skills allows her to do this with a lot less struggle. If she had not been working all these years she would be hard pressed to be able to support her kids. And thus either be forced to be poverty-stricken or stay in a bad situation.  

Since around the world poverty is a majority of women and children, something is wrong. This is universally all over.  Clearly if Allah's requirements were being fulfilled this would not be the case.

I think that to regulate any system on a large scale is really impossible.

Plus I remember reading about alot of young men in Saudi Arabia were not employable because all's they had were religious schooling. Where of course that is good, it has no "practical" skills in the job world. So how do you work for a company when you don't have the skills or knowledge?  Plus if you are really wealthy, why work anyways? This may be changing.

Assalaamu alaikum;

Sister Hayfa is right, not all men fulfill their obligations

For those of us stuck in non islamic countries, We women Must have job skills.

As a nurse, my starting wage is $30 USD per hour. When my husband was hurt in his work ten years ago and could no longer make a living wage,  I went back to work full time. His disibility pay is only $750 per month and we cannot live on that, we are a second marriage and have 11 children between us. My youngest, the only one I had with this husband, just graduated high school and did it 6 months early. 3 of my children are going to college as am I, I am finishing my masters in multicultural education and I still work 1-2 days a week as a substitute teacher.

If I did it with all those kids, any woman can do it.I did my backelors over the last 10 years (finished in 2004) I paid my way as i went and accrued no debt. I am NOT wealthy, my house is paid off and we are moving to Mexico to live in the north region so that we may live more cheaply and take care of my elderly mother in law. I will be commuting and be here 4 days per week. It sounds crazy, but if you do as you are advised and stay away from the credit and pay your debts you will be surprised.

True, the standards in islamic countries are different. But we need to be prudent and be wise. you brothers need to get a good and practical education, but a good husband will see to it that their wives and family will not be left unprovided for in the event of something happening to you. either get your wives an education or buy insurance, and find a field to work in that has a good demand. You may have to start out in the latrine division, get over it, and work your way up. Stop blaming women who work!

I know what it is like to be left without job skills, My first husband was shot and killed when I was 28 and home with 5 kids,...5 small kids and no way to feed them. My first husband left a $250,000.00 insurance policy to his wicked witch of a mother who was already married to a wealthy guy and my children never saw ANY of it. (I will not contact her till this day!) I sold my first house and moved into low income apt. I took a job as a nurses aide and when the social security came in I started school and it took 3 years but I got my degree in nursing. I bought another house for my growing kids, and Alhamdullilah, I met my husband and it has been good since then! Sisters, be wise, dont be left in the ditch as I was!

"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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Quote najamsahar Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 3:35pm

Being in an islamic country does not gaurantee anything. Though I am not Saudi citizen, I can tell you if I was, I would still be facing certain issues that are common to all us women. women are routinely fleeced of their inheritances and even there are mnay cases where working women sacrifice their entire wealth and the husbands use this money to get a second wife. These kinds of stories are a dime a dozen. And in this backdrop, Islam seems a little hard to understand, especially the part of men being protectors.

I should have added this on the last reply. while saudi has its own problems, we should remember that there have always been men that had jobs and men that didnt. As there will always be those who get things done and those who complain about 1% competition from muslim women

 

 

 

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Quote B.H. Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2006 at 8:49pm
Everyone has given wonderful replies the past two days.  Let me ponder some more on what has been written and I'll get back to you later.
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