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Interfaith Dialogue
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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 3:53am
Originally posted by Cyril


On the other hand many Muslims consider Christians as polytheists because of the Trinity (and without the Trinity there would be no Christians).

So it is a kind of nonsense to include them among the People of the Book.



The Qu'ran includes Christians specifically, doesn't it?  And many Christian denominations reject the concept of a Trinity.
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 4:59am

Cyril,

From you: "I see that you disagree with Imam Malik Ibn Anas one of Islam's greatest scholars. He included the Zoroastrians as People of the Book."

I am not aware of that. Could you please quote me on that. As far as my knowledge is concerned, Zoroastrians are not the People of the Book. Zoroaster (Zartasht in Persian), the founder, was a good man. Modern day followers of Zartasht are known as Parsis.

I can disagree with an Imam but I can't and dare not disagree with God Almighty.

Only people from the Abrahamic religions are considered "People of the Book". They must have belief in One God only. Zoroastrians believe that their Good God is rivalled by another Evil God and there is a tussle between Good and Evil. 

From you: "On the other hand many Muslims consider Christians as polytheists because of the Trinity (and without the Trinity there would be no Christians).
So it is a kind of nonsense to include them among the People of the Book."

In all messages and teachings of Jesus, one does not find Trinity taught by him at all. I agree with David that many Christian denominations reject the concept of Trinity. Moreover, the Christian Scriptures do have the messages of God as taught by Jesus and most of the messages from the Torah were aslo taught and preached by Jesus.

Since Trinity is no where to be found in the direct teachings of Jesus, the Christians are still considered as People of the Book.

BMZ



Edited by bmzsp
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Cyril
 
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Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 8:05am
BMZ

Let's first agree on the following: the Quran mentions Jews, Christians and Sabians as People of the Book.

Zoroastrianism has evolved along the centuries (aka Mazdeism and Parsism for example) and in one of its form it was a dualism (a God of Good vs a God of Evil). So I think rather like you, it does not seem to be a pure monotheism and even not a monotheism at all.

As there must have been several types of Zoroastrians, some of them must have passed themselves as monotheists so that Imam Malik counted them among the People of the Book (see People of the Book wikipedia). I also heard that Zoroastrians were sometimes mixed up with Sabians.

So we arrive to the question: who were the Sabians? Some say they are the Mandaeans. Were Mandaeans monotheists? Or dualists?

About Christianity:

Your quote: "In all messages and teachings of Jesus, one does not find Trinity taught by him at all."

We are not going to start a basic course in Christianity, but saying such a thing is considering the over two billions Christians as idiots. Can Christians believe in something which is not described in Christian scriptures? That is nonsense.

Your quote:" I agree with David that many Christian denominations reject the concept of Trinity."

Which denominations? I live in Europe in a Christian surrounding and never heard about them.



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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 9:39am

Cyril,

Sabeans were Monotheistic and about a few years ago, they found an entire group living in Iraq. I do not know much about their beliefs.

I have come across Christians, never asked them for their denominations, but some confirm that there is only one God and they consider Jesus only as a Son of God. I have found some who even maintain the Sabbath exactly as the Jews do. Some Christians that I spoke to consider Jesus as an intercessor between man and God only.

Of course the majority is not idiot and believes in Trinity but my point was that Jesus did NOT teach that.

About 1.5 billion Hindus of India, Burma, Bangladesh, Nepal and other Asian states believe in their own ancientTrinity. Certainly we cannot call them idiots.

I have read the Bible well and did not read or see a single sentence in which Jesus himself clearly said, "I am the Son of God" or "I am God". That is what I meant.



Edited by bmzsp
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Patty
 
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Quote Patty Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 4:20pm

bmz said:

"I have read the Bible well and did not read or see a single sentence in which Jesus himself clearly said, "I am the Son of God" or "I am God". That is what I meant."

Jesus spoke many times in parables.  But it was obvious what He meant.  I know you are familiar with his response to Phillip in the Gospel of John, when Phillips asked Him to "show us the Father."  We know what he meant when he said "you've seen me, you've seen the father."  There is no doubt what He meant.  Or when He told His disciples that He would send the Paraclete or the Holy Spirit to comfort us.  He talked many times about His father who was in Heaven.  That means He is the Son of God the Father.

But we can just beat this to death if we really try, can't we bmz?

God's Peace Always!!


 

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 5:15pm

Patty,

"But we can just beat this to death if we really try, can't we bmz? "

Yes, we can.  But I don't intend to unless absolutely necessary.

How is your dear father, Patty? God bless and my best wishes.

BMZ

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Patty
 
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Quote Patty Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 5:31pm

Dear BMZ,

My precious father died on July 8.  I am actually devastated by his death.  This site is very therapeutic for me, and I'm in grief therapy.  The good Muslims here had a wonderful, quite beautiful memorial set up to my Dad at the time of his death.  I had to fly home, but I checked on it nearly every day.  It is still on here. 

I'm glad his suffering is over.....but I just can't believe he's gone.  (I was a "daddy's girl"....we did everything together when I was a kid, and I guess I stayed a little girl to him.)  He was a wonderful, loving, kind man who never hated anyone in his life.  He never knew a stranger.  I am truly "lost" right now.  But I have my faith and I believe in time I will feel happiness again.  I know my Dad is with our loving God, and that is what gets me through this right now. 

Thank you so much for asking, bmz!

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 11:17pm

Dear Patty,

That is a huge loss and my sincere condolences to you and family. I can understand the pain. may God give you  that strength to bear this loss.

If you are 18-20, I would love to be your daddy. Smile.

Best Regards

BMZ

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