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Ginghis
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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2006 at 6:45am

Yes, Yes, Yes, Thank You Duende

Each side should be able to stand respected and honored for its history and achievments. Each side should be respected for their dedication to its beliefs. But as you say each side will have to except some compromise and most of that will be physical and geographic.

I wonder if there is any nation that has not committed to one view or another. Or even a person, who both sides can respect, that can say these are the lines and these are the rules, then each party will say in the name of peace, prosperity, and spiritual growth, we will abide and be responsible for our own actions. It is obvious that honor is a strong principle among the Moslems and the Israeli. Honor is a great basis for trust.

It is also obvious to me the US cannot be the broker.



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Duende
 
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Quote Duende Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2006 at 11:08am
Agreed again Ginghis, the US is, and to my mind always has been, an
intruder at the negotiating table

After reading the Jimmy Carter piece I mentioned I have to ask out
loud: why is it only ex-presidents/politicians leaders who can come
up with the answers?

It makes you wonder about the hand in the shadows doesn't it?
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Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2006 at 9:49pm

"Some how at some time we have come to the conclusion it is our duty to be mean to those who are not like us."

Well Prof Ginghis, you hit the nail on the head: 

In the very begining of creation, when the Lord decread He will create human kind on earth, the angels were taken aback. They were shocked and ask Allah

 "...will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?"  He [Allah] said, "indeed I know that which you do ot know."  Quran 2:30

so don't be surprised -this is our nature. Even the Angels know us better than we know ourselves. 

:)

 

but in every occasion there is the oppressor and the opressed, the tyrant and the slaves, -the right is crystal clear from the wrong. 

now it depends on each individual where they stand.  don't get too overwhelmed by so many different oppinions. you don't want to fall into an abyss of enigma.  chose the one side that you feel good and think is absolutely right and submit yourelf to the Will of the Lord who knows all things.

 

 

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Ginghis
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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2006 at 4:18am

Amalhayati2, I will never achieve the status of professor but I am a technician for a university. The hardest part of any repair is identifing the problem. In a piece of electronic gear there are thousands of parts. Many of them, when broken, display the same symptons. Replacing the broken part takes very little effort. Identifying the broken part takes experience, knowledge, methodical examination, and patience. In my world it is called trouble shooting. I cannot trouble shoot with a bias, my approach has to be with no preconceived notion. In the end a process of elimination gets me to where I need to be.

This may be a bad analogy, but it is where I am comfortable.

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Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2006 at 10:25am

That's a great analogy.  And with that method you will find that the truth clearly standing out amid all this hubbub. 

but let me breat it down too: if you had two older children in their 20's, let's say one was 23 and the other was 25, and they got into an argument.  sibling rivalry.  you as their father came to diffuse the situation and want to know what happend... what was their 'root cause' that brought on this commotion?  do you go way back to when they were little kids and say to youself, 'well then, they faught bcz of such and such reason. so that's the reason behind the commotion of thier fighting now. the root cause of their argument now was because of that reason when they faught when they were 5 and 7.' 

 and when you go way back to prophet Abraham's time to figure out a cause for the Palestinian/Israeli issue going on now, that's what it seems like your doing.  i think that's farfetched. 

Before 1948, there was no big problem btw the two ppl. once Israel decieded to become an indipendent state over Palestinian territory, thats where all these problems arose btw retaliatoins/revenge/etc. 

Going too far back only relates problems that occur at that moment for a reason related to that time.  so don't take them out of context and try to match them.

if you reach way back to the time of Prophet Abraham or the Twelve Tribes to find a 'root cause' for the israel/palestinian conflict- you'll really put yourelf into an abyss of enigma.  it doens't need all that.

just ask a young man on what they think happened and the furthest they'll go is say something like 'well someone took the other's land and now there's fighting'.   that's just as good as a 'root cause' as anything else.  simple and understandable. 

 

 

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Ginghis
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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2006 at 7:01am

Amalhayati2, That is a strong example. I would like to apply that right away. If we could get all parties to use that as a principle I believe there might be a way to reach an exceptable solution. Even I could make a wise decision in that situation. But no one allows that. In my search for a common ground people are all over the time line. Everyone wants to include/add the events that tip judgements in their favor. When I say 1948, some one says 1921, when I say kidnapping, some one says bombed family. Generally Moslems say look back, Israelis say look forward. I get the very clear impression that Israelies know what they did wrong and don't want to "examine" it or admit it. I also get the impression that Moslems won't be satisfied until they are able to turn the clock back and fix an injustice.

The pundits and politicians all slap their fist into their hands and say "I know the root cause". They don't, they only support their own bias.

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Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2006 at 8:36am

I apreciate your research in this. your results are vital for ppl to observe and realize. You show clearly how something so evident could become discombobulated and messy when using unlimited historical data to decipher the cause.  

Historical data is definately needed, realative data of course.

I'd give your research a little twist: ask a little kid, from both sides on what they think happened.  Listning to a kid gives you the simplest reason (because they are still young and freash so-to -speak and haven't been fed any excessive information). and maybe it could be the best reason.

once you understand a general cause to the palestine/israeli issue,  you have a more or less accurate idea about it and that will provide a framework to do your reseach in.

then you may endulge into history to find the specifics. doing it that way, you won't get yourself entangled with irrelavent information.

:) 

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Ginghis
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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2006 at 10:01am

Some practical results of this thread so far.

My wife and one of my daughters, (they have been reading it since we started and we have discussions every evening), have gained a more balanced understanding and speak of solutions in terms that take all humanity in consideration.

I have learned things with no media filter.

We have an election in a few months. I will be voting for my representive to the congress. I will be able to make a more informed decision and hopefully not send an ignorant person on my behalf.

The latest estimates of world population is around 6.5 billion. I know for sure 3 of us want to be fair about this situation...Sigh.....

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