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Sign*Reader
 
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2006 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Ginghis

Political Science professor

If I were teaching a course about the Arab-Israeli conflict, I would probably go all the way back to father Abraham and his adulterous affair with Haggar and their son Ishmael, who was a thorn in the side of Israel, the "legitimate" heir. You see, it's all a family feud that we need to stay out of.......

I better stop here. I'm getting in over my head." No **it


A glaring disinformation and a major source of racist attitude amongst the western Christian (in fact it is a western religion) mindset (based on Galatians tract  by Paul’s sacrilegious  mumbo jumbo) about who is legit and who was not  legit of Abrahams sons Ishmael or Isaac!!!!

I did bring this point in another thread also. This kind of talk is not going to help the westerners.

They need to know and clear once for all, the rule in OT ---If a man slept with any woman, she would automatically become his wife the child would be in the old man’s inheritance no questions asked. Is’ it a coincidence that close to 50% of the European and thereabouts in the good old USA, children born are out of wedlock. Think about “Brangelina” And there is no discussion of illegitimacy anywhere. What a hypocracy!!!!

 

Going further Ishmael was no where around Israel (Jacob) who was son of Isaac.

Has anybody given an honest thought that 12 sons of Israel were the issues from 2 wives (who were sisters>>> Leah’s kids by # of birth 1.Reuben; 2.Simeon; 3.Levi; 4. JUDAH; 9. Is sachar; 10.Zebulun and daughter Dinah>>> Rachel’s sons 11. Joseph & 12. Benjamin) and 2 handmaids (Leah’s hand maid Zilpah’s sons # 7. Gad; 8. Asher) Rachel’s maid Bilhah’s sons # 5. Dan and 6. Naphtali—(a grand case of polygyny  and say illegitimacy according to filthy, hypocritical western minds but not by divine laws that is legit even today if you are a true believer)

All 12 brothers and half brothers were the heads of what is known Israelites today. How many really survived the diaspora, that would be  a different thread.

The problem with western thinking is that it is too rude and crude being materialistic in approach as compared to the middleeasterners. It is all in the thinking---either you have a truely religious thinking or you don't--the paganistic mind just can't break the cycle.
Think about it;Why God never sent any of his prophets to the europeans Read the OT and U come back thinking the level of it's materialistic approach to all things and then see what Jews brought back from their 2000 years of the European camping. Their creation  of banking and money control of the western world made it possible to buy portion of Palestine back from the Brits/ US while the arabs were in devolutionary cycle's bottom and they still are. The things are not going to improve bcs where can you find such an easy access to a material source which is in such high demand than the ME.

 I was watching William Polk on CSPAN the other day, and he addressed the main reason to invade Iraq was the study stating that Baghdad is sittoing on the biggest oilfield in the world even bigger than Saudi's. On one side the American Jews have control over the printing and distribution of $$$ and oil that controls the running of american assemblylines. They got to run no matter what and who gets killed.

So what is there left to think about. THings have become more complicated since the Arabs are waking up a little and looking for coffee, when they are fully awake; then we will find the root cause

 U may send this over to the professor, he may need some home work in this area

You  know the root cause, the reality is GWB and his cahoots believe that they don't ***t or worse>>>>  it doesn't stink.

Peace




Edited by Sign*Reader
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2006 at 5:48pm
Wow Sign*Reader I didnt know you had the answer!

Just print his comments out and the professor will indeed be
stumped wow...
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2006 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by peacemaker

Originally posted by Duende

s666 wrote: "may not be brother, andalusia is a conquered territory. 
muslims do not belong there. they are the invaders."

For me, this is an example of what we still suffer from today:
interpretations of history. Even though we are right in the midle of it,
it's happening all around us, we are still unnable to have an objective
view.

New studies are suggesting the so-called 'Arab invasion' of Spain
(not Andalusia, but Al-Andalus which was the Moorish name for the
country,) was nothing of the sort. More like a settlement which
simply expanded.

We have all accepted the official history which has been given to us:
Arabs invaded Spain, and this ended when the Catholic Kings
expelled them. The expulsion of the Moors from Spain, alongside the
less well known expulsion of the Jews (to this day known as
Sephardies, with their own language and culture, and nostalgia for a
lost Golden Age in Spain) which occurred at the same time, caused
the worst economic crash the country had ever experienced which
was why Ferdinand and Isabela hired Columbus to steal the riches
from the Aztec and Maya kings.

The discovery of America is still celebrated today as a peaceful and
righteous achievement. It was in fact the result of daring
seamanship: Columbus thought he had reached India by a new route
and thus declared the natives to be 'Indians'. Imagine! They had no
idea it was an entirely new continent, they were looking for spices
and goods from India. They were looking for a new trade route.
When they found the Aztec and Mayan riches: the Catholic kings
ordered them to sieze them.

So, from this example a mere 500 years ago you can get an idea of
how difficult it is to find root causes for conflicts, and how difficult it
is to get a clear view of history.

As Napoleon said; History is nothing but an agreed upon set of lies.

Today's media play a vital role in teaching the public, who have no
other way of knowing, what is actually going on and why. However,
as the current invasion of Lebanon shows us: the media are as biased
and subject to persuasions of propaganda as everybody else is. In
the end, people believe what they want to, whatever suits their own
mind set and personal limits.

In any case, Ginghis, please don't rely on quotes from Wikipedia, the
entries there are as biased as the people who wrote them. Does
Patty's quote mention the fact that Israel, up to today's Prime
Minister, has been ruled by terrorists? Former army generals
responsible for human rights massacres (Shabra, Shatila = Sharon-
soon to be celebrated as an Israeli heroe as he shuffles off this
mortal coil) and erstwhile members of terrorist cells (Begin).

Here's an interesting slant someone posted on another forum. I don't
know where he got this from, but it lends spice to the thinking:

"The first wave of modern immigration to Israel, called Aliyah started
in 1881. The Jews bought land from Ottoman and individual Arab
landholders. After Jews established agricultural settlements, tensions
erupted between the Jews and Arabs.

There was no country of Palestine or Israel or Lebanon at this stage.
There was no people called Palestinians back then.

Palestine was a name for an region (not country) that extended in the
north-south direction typically from Raphia (south-east of Gaza) to
the Litani River (now in Lebanon). The western boundary was the sea,
and the eastern boundary was the poorly-defined place where the
Syrian desert began. In various European sources, the eastern
boundary was placed anywhere from the Jordan River to slightly east
of Amman. The Negev Desert was not included.

The idea of an independent nationality for Palestinian Arabs was
greatly boosted by the 1967 Six Day War in which these lands were
conquered by Israel; instead of being ruled by different Arab states
encouraging them to think of themselves as Jordanians or Egyptians,
those in the West Bank and Gaza were now ruled by a state with no
desire to make them think of themselves as Israelis, and an active
interest in discouraging them from regarding themselves as
Egyptians, Jordanians, or Syrians. Moreover, the natives of the West
Bank and the Gaza Strip now shared many interests and problems in
common with each other that they did not share with the
neighboring countries."

Assalamu Alaikum,

Can anybody quote what famous historian, Thomas W Arnold said about so called Arab or Muslim invasion of Spain.

Peace

Assalam Aleikum.

There is an entire chapter dedicated to Spain. Anything in particular you are interested in?

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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peacemaker
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Quote peacemaker Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2006 at 1:15am
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by peacemaker

Originally posted by Duende

s666 wrote: "may not be brother, andalusia is a conquered territory. 
muslims do not belong there. they are the invaders."

For me, this is an example of what we still suffer from today:
interpretations of history. Even though we are right in the midle of it,
it's happening all around us, we are still unnable to have an objective
view.

New studies are suggesting the so-called 'Arab invasion' of Spain
(not Andalusia, but Al-Andalus which was the Moorish name for the
country,) was nothing of the sort. More like a settlement which
simply expanded.

We have all accepted the official history which has been given to us:
Arabs invaded Spain, and this ended when the Catholic Kings
expelled them. The expulsion of the Moors from Spain, alongside the
less well known expulsion of the Jews (to this day known as
Sephardies, with their own language and culture, and nostalgia for a
lost Golden Age in Spain) which occurred at the same time, caused
the worst economic crash the country had ever experienced which
was why Ferdinand and Isabela hired Columbus to steal the riches
from the Aztec and Maya kings.

The discovery of America is still celebrated today as a peaceful and
righteous achievement. It was in fact the result of daring
seamanship: Columbus thought he had reached India by a new route
and thus declared the natives to be 'Indians'. Imagine! They had no
idea it was an entirely new continent, they were looking for spices
and goods from India. They were looking for a new trade route.
When they found the Aztec and Mayan riches: the Catholic kings
ordered them to sieze them.

So, from this example a mere 500 years ago you can get an idea of
how difficult it is to find root causes for conflicts, and how difficult it
is to get a clear view of history.

As Napoleon said; History is nothing but an agreed upon set of lies.

Today's media play a vital role in teaching the public, who have no
other way of knowing, what is actually going on and why. However,
as the current invasion of Lebanon shows us: the media are as biased
and subject to persuasions of propaganda as everybody else is. In
the end, people believe what they want to, whatever suits their own
mind set and personal limits.

In any case, Ginghis, please don't rely on quotes from Wikipedia, the
entries there are as biased as the people who wrote them. Does
Patty's quote mention the fact that Israel, up to today's Prime
Minister, has been ruled by terrorists? Former army generals
responsible for human rights massacres (Shabra, Shatila = Sharon-
soon to be celebrated as an Israeli heroe as he shuffles off this
mortal coil) and erstwhile members of terrorist cells (Begin).

Here's an interesting slant someone posted on another forum. I don't
know where he got this from, but it lends spice to the thinking:

"The first wave of modern immigration to Israel, called Aliyah started
in 1881. The Jews bought land from Ottoman and individual Arab
landholders. After Jews established agricultural settlements, tensions
erupted between the Jews and Arabs.

There was no country of Palestine or Israel or Lebanon at this stage.
There was no people called Palestinians back then.

Palestine was a name for an region (not country) that extended in the
north-south direction typically from Raphia (south-east of Gaza) to
the Litani River (now in Lebanon). The western boundary was the sea,
and the eastern boundary was the poorly-defined place where the
Syrian desert began. In various European sources, the eastern
boundary was placed anywhere from the Jordan River to slightly east
of Amman. The Negev Desert was not included.

The idea of an independent nationality for Palestinian Arabs was
greatly boosted by the 1967 Six Day War in which these lands were
conquered by Israel; instead of being ruled by different Arab states
encouraging them to think of themselves as Jordanians or Egyptians,
those in the West Bank and Gaza were now ruled by a state with no
desire to make them think of themselves as Israelis, and an active
interest in discouraging them from regarding themselves as
Egyptians, Jordanians, or Syrians. Moreover, the natives of the West
Bank and the Gaza Strip now shared many interests and problems in
common with each other that they did not share with the
neighboring countries."

Assalamu Alaikum,

Can anybody quote what famous historian, Thomas W Arnold said about so called Arab or Muslim invasion of Spain.

Peace

Assalam Aleikum.

There is an entire chapter dedicated to Spain. Anything in particular you are interested in?

Assalamu Alaikum,

Many years back, I read perspective of famous historian Thomas W Arnold on Spain that prevalent notion of "invasion" of Spain by Muslims was false. As far as I recall, he also wrote that King Ferdinand, in contrast, slaughtered Muslims en masse. He also forced them to convert in the process of their expulsion from 700 year Muslim ruled Spain.

Do you have any link to that chapter, Brother. 

Jazak Allah Khair. 

Peace

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2006 at 4:32pm
Israfil:
Thanks
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2006 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Ginghis

Political Science professor

"... If you want to go to root causes, maybe it goes all the way back to Joseph, who couldn't get along with his brothers and fled to Egypt. He later reconciled and I think his relatives moved there where they flourished and multiplied. Then they got Moses to lead them to the promised land, and the rest is history.

...


If I were teaching a course about the Arab-Israeli conflict, I would probably go all the way back to father Abraham and his adulterous affair with Haggar and their son Ishmael, who was a thorn in the side of Israel, the "legitimate" heir. You see, it's all a family feud that we need to stay out of.......

 

you are in an islamic discussion forum.  your brought a biblical interpretation of our religious history. that's not what muslims believe happened.  you must first understand with what our book, the Quran, tells us about the history of Prophet Abraham and his sons.  then you will have the muslim's perspective. 

In the quran, there was never a problem with ishmael and issac. nor any secrecy btw sara and hagar.  On the contrary, Sara gave Hagar to Abraham.  and Joseph never 'fleed to egypt' because 'he couldn't get allong with his brothers'. 

young Joseph was thrown in a well by his jealous brothers only to be taken in later by a passing caravan that found him when they stopped to get a drink of water.

the story goes on in Chapter 12 of the Quran (sura 12). it's a pretty interesting story by the way.

Chapter 14 tells the story of Prophet Abraham.

 

If you want to go all the way back to the story of Abraham to find a 'root cause' you'll have to take into consideration the differences in what your book tells and what the Quran tells that we muslims believe happend.

 

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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2006 at 3:33am

Thank You Amalhayati2,

I simply asked the same question of many people. These are the answers I received. The term "root cause" is being bandied about as if if can be defined. Every root cause I have heard has been challenged and disputed. There is truly no place to start and understand why no solution can be found that all parties can agree on. History seems to have many intrepertations. How people think has been declared wrong. Where people live and their values have been declared wrong. Cultures have been rated better or worse than another. It is as if we are not all humans who want to have a good life.

I registered to this forum to get an Islamic perspective on the root cause. I no longer trust the media. I wanted to talk to people and learn todays feelings and motivations. Mostly what I get are justifications that perpetuate present actions and events. I have gained an understanding of why the conflict goes on and on, but I have not gained much understanding of why it started in the first place. I don't think we are capable of descerning that.

Some how at some time we have come to the conclusion it is our duty to be mean to those who are not like us.

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Quote Duende Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2006 at 6:10am
Bravo Ginghi, good conclusions. I too, after reading this thread
realised that there is not much point in finding the root cause since it
has actually CHANGED according to different interpretations through
the centuries and generations. And thus, I feel is ALL of history.

So what are we left with? Human nature: "Some how at some time we
have come to the conclusion it is our duty to be mean to those who
are not like us." THIS is a fundamental error throughout human
cultures, it is why we seek spiritual guidance.

It is a big mistake to try and appease all parties ACCORDING TO
THEIR HISTORIC CLAIMS, as these, as we've seen, are diametrically
opposed. What we have to do is deal directly with the here and now,
the present, what I have witnessed for more than 40 years is the
stupid aggression ON BOTH SIDES, as though neither Jews nor
Moslems had a good guide in their Holy texts.

Over on another thread I've posted an article by Jimmy Carter titled
Stop The Band Aid treatment. You might find it worth reading. At this
stage it's obvious that violence, armed conflict is only prolonging
everybody's suffering. I for one think that in order for diplomacy and
negotiations to begin BOTH sides HAVE to be treated as equals. As
painfull as that is, negotiation and diplomacy involves a lot of
sacrifice and compromise.
Having said that, too much compromise or sacrifice on one side
means we leave the wound still unhealed and open to further
infection.

Thank God I'm not a diplomat, then again, alot of people who are
called Diplomats certainly don't deserve that distinction! (J. Bolten/
Condy Rice)
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