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lovetabuleh
 
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Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2006 at 9:17am
Originally posted by Ginghis

Amalhayati2, applying your your quote to the the concept of root cause I can draw 2 conclusions.

1. The media reports are misleading and it would be impossible to make a good decision or have right thinking by allowing media reports to be considered fact.

and/or

2. The right wing Christians are an external agitator with an agenda and should be considered a part of the Arab/Israeli conflict.

yes both are points are implied.  American media is bias in the fact that it only tells a fraction of the story while deciding for us who's to be blamed. 

In the american media doesn't show the severity of the situation and neither does it tell that it's american weapons that israel is using.  "american arms used by Israeli hands". the media is psychologically dissuadeing. 

The persistancy to keep the agression going stems from the Right-Wing Christians leading the bush administration and in turn controling the American govt.  They are the force behind unyeilding to Lebanees massacre.  Although they don't state it, from an article i read here on islamicity forums their persistency stems from thier chritian belief that prophesizes the arival of the Messiah.

but all this is whta's going on at the present time.  you want to know in the past what has started all this fuss don't you?  so maybe talking about the affect of the media and the persistancy of the Right-Wing Christians takes us on a different angle... i don't think they are the 'root cause' of the Arab/Israel conflict. 

the root cause came just from the israeli's occupation of arab land. in 1948.  it's btw the israelis and arabs themselves. right-wing christians are just adding feul to the fire.

i wouldn't get too much into who/what/when/where/why before the comming of Israel's independence in 1948... usually the 'audiance' are not hisotry savy individuals.  I'd be consise about this.  the root cause was from the lack of land that Jews had (since they were exciled from Europe) and so they chose the holy land, that equally belongs to all Three Abrahamic Religions, but violently and unmercifully shoved the occupents out to make their settlements.  

yes religion has a factor in it but history is history and if you are asking about what happened (the root cause), we should just state the facts.  religion is in another realm of the topic where it gives excuses of why history was done.

 

 

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s666
 
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Quote s666 Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2006 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Jockey



I can bet my life on it: Israel will disappear within no time. Hizbullah is showing us today How vulnerable this defacto state is.



dont be so generous brother.  dont underestimate israel.  their 'not again...' philosophy is very dangerous.

The most dangerous person is the one who has nothing else to lose.
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Duende
 
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Quote Duende Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2006 at 12:51am
s666 wrote: "may not be brother, andalusia is a conquered territory. 
muslims do not belong there. they are the invaders."

For me, this is an example of what we still suffer from today:
interpretations of history. Even though we are right in the midle of it,
it's happening all around us, we are still unnable to have an objective
view.

New studies are suggesting the so-called 'Arab invasion' of Spain
(not Andalusia, but Al-Andalus which was the Moorish name for the
country,) was nothing of the sort. More like a settlement which
simply expanded.

We have all accepted the official history which has been given to us:
Arabs invaded Spain, and this ended when the Catholic Kings
expelled them. The expulsion of the Moors from Spain, alongside the
less well known expulsion of the Jews (to this day known as
Sephardies, with their own language and culture, and nostalgia for a
lost Golden Age in Spain) which occurred at the same time, caused
the worst economic crash the country had ever experienced which
was why Ferdinand and Isabela hired Columbus to steal the riches
from the Aztec and Maya kings.

The discovery of America is still celebrated today as a peaceful and
righteous achievement. It was in fact the result of daring
seamanship: Columbus thought he had reached India by a new route
and thus declared the natives to be 'Indians'. Imagine! They had no
idea it was an entirely new continent, they were looking for spices
and goods from India. They were looking for a new trade route.
When they found the Aztec and Mayan riches: the Catholic kings
ordered them to sieze them.

So, from this example a mere 500 years ago you can get an idea of
how difficult it is to find root causes for conflicts, and how difficult it
is to get a clear view of history.

As Napoleon said; History is nothing but an agreed upon set of lies.

Today's media play a vital role in teaching the public, who have no
other way of knowing, what is actually going on and why. However,
as the current invasion of Lebanon shows us: the media are as biased
and subject to persuasions of propaganda as everybody else is. In
the end, people believe what they want to, whatever suits their own
mind set and personal limits.

In any case, Ginghis, please don't rely on quotes from Wikipedia, the
entries there are as biased as the people who wrote them. Does
Patty's quote mention the fact that Israel, up to today's Prime
Minister, has been ruled by terrorists? Former army generals
responsible for human rights massacres (Shabra, Shatila = Sharon-
soon to be celebrated as an Israeli heroe as he shuffles off this
mortal coil) and erstwhile members of terrorist cells (Begin).

Here's an interesting slant someone posted on another forum. I don't
know where he got this from, but it lends spice to the thinking:

"The first wave of modern immigration to Israel, called Aliyah started
in 1881. The Jews bought land from Ottoman and individual Arab
landholders. After Jews established agricultural settlements, tensions
erupted between the Jews and Arabs.

There was no country of Palestine or Israel or Lebanon at this stage.
There was no people called Palestinians back then.

Palestine was a name for an region (not country) that extended in the
north-south direction typically from Raphia (south-east of Gaza) to
the Litani River (now in Lebanon). The western boundary was the sea,
and the eastern boundary was the poorly-defined place where the
Syrian desert began. In various European sources, the eastern
boundary was placed anywhere from the Jordan River to slightly east
of Amman. The Negev Desert was not included.

The idea of an independent nationality for Palestinian Arabs was
greatly boosted by the 1967 Six Day War in which these lands were
conquered by Israel; instead of being ruled by different Arab states
encouraging them to think of themselves as Jordanians or Egyptians,
those in the West Bank and Gaza were now ruled by a state with no
desire to make them think of themselves as Israelis, and an active
interest in discouraging them from regarding themselves as
Egyptians, Jordanians, or Syrians. Moreover, the natives of the West
Bank and the Gaza Strip now shared many interests and problems in
common with each other that they did not share with the
neighboring countries."

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Duende
 
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Quote Duende Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2006 at 2:01am

Ginghis, in your search for knowledge you really should read the
excellent essay recently published about the strengh of the ‘Israel
Lobby’ within American politics. So far, here we’ve talked about the
far right Christian agenda in the US policiy towards Israel and
Palestine, but here you’ll read a very well balanced account of how
jews within America also influence foreign policy.

The essay is still being raged over as anyone who dares to talk
about Israel in anything but gently glowing terms of sympathy and
support is deemed anti-semitic. Which is not the case. Because I
disagree with Israel does not mean I disagree with Jews. It means I
disagree with Israeli politics. We seem to forget Israel is a non-
confessional democracy, in the same way that America is. Hard to
believe, isn’t it?

Likewise, in the Bush sponsored simplification of global politics
today, if you don’t support Israel, then you support Hezbollah!
You’re either with us, or against us. Just because G W Bush can’t
think of complex issues without the help of psychotropic drugs,
doesn’t mean the rest of us have to practise his fundamentalist
thinking.

Here’s the link to the Israel Lobby essay and some relevant quotes
from it which may add to your knowledge.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html


“A third justification is the history of Jewish suffering in the
Christian West, especially during the Holocaust. Because Jews were
persecuted for centuries and could feel safe only in a Jewish
homeland, many people now believe that Israel deserves special
treatment from the United States. The country’s creation was
undoubtedly an appropriate response to the long record of crimes
against Jews, but it also brought about fresh crimes against a
largely innocent third party: the Palestinians.

This was well understood by Israel’s early leaders. David Ben-
Gurion told Nahum Goldmann, the president of the World Jewish
Congress:

If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That
is natural: we have taken their country . . . We come from Israel, but
two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been
anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their
fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their
country. Why should they accept that?

It is also worth bearing in mind that the Zionists relied on terrorist
bombs to drive the British from Palestine, and that Yitzhak Shamir,
once a terrorist and later prime minister, declared that ‘neither
Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a
means of combat.’

The Palestinian resort to terrorism is wrong but it isn’t surprising.
The Palestinians believe they have no other way to force Israeli
concessions. As Ehud Barak once admitted, had he been born a
Palestinian, he ‘would have joined a terrorist organisation’.”
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Jockey
 
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Quote Jockey Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2006 at 4:02am
[/QUOTE]dont be so generous brother.  dont underestimate israel.  their 'not again...' philosophy is very dangerous[/QUOTE]

You know what our phiosophy is? La Ilaha illa Llah Muhammadun Rasul Llah. Match that.
Its Coming Soon...
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peacemaker
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Quote peacemaker Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2006 at 11:01am

Originally posted by Duende

s666 wrote: "may not be brother, andalusia is a conquered territory. 
muslims do not belong there. they are the invaders."

For me, this is an example of what we still suffer from today:
interpretations of history. Even though we are right in the midle of it,
it's happening all around us, we are still unnable to have an objective
view.

New studies are suggesting the so-called 'Arab invasion' of Spain
(not Andalusia, but Al-Andalus which was the Moorish name for the
country,) was nothing of the sort. More like a settlement which
simply expanded.

We have all accepted the official history which has been given to us:
Arabs invaded Spain, and this ended when the Catholic Kings
expelled them. The expulsion of the Moors from Spain, alongside the
less well known expulsion of the Jews (to this day known as
Sephardies, with their own language and culture, and nostalgia for a
lost Golden Age in Spain) which occurred at the same time, caused
the worst economic crash the country had ever experienced which
was why Ferdinand and Isabela hired Columbus to steal the riches
from the Aztec and Maya kings.

The discovery of America is still celebrated today as a peaceful and
righteous achievement. It was in fact the result of daring
seamanship: Columbus thought he had reached India by a new route
and thus declared the natives to be 'Indians'. Imagine! They had no
idea it was an entirely new continent, they were looking for spices
and goods from India. They were looking for a new trade route.
When they found the Aztec and Mayan riches: the Catholic kings
ordered them to sieze them.

So, from this example a mere 500 years ago you can get an idea of
how difficult it is to find root causes for conflicts, and how difficult it
is to get a clear view of history.

As Napoleon said; History is nothing but an agreed upon set of lies.

Today's media play a vital role in teaching the public, who have no
other way of knowing, what is actually going on and why. However,
as the current invasion of Lebanon shows us: the media are as biased
and subject to persuasions of propaganda as everybody else is. In
the end, people believe what they want to, whatever suits their own
mind set and personal limits.

In any case, Ginghis, please don't rely on quotes from Wikipedia, the
entries there are as biased as the people who wrote them. Does
Patty's quote mention the fact that Israel, up to today's Prime
Minister, has been ruled by terrorists? Former army generals
responsible for human rights massacres (Shabra, Shatila = Sharon-
soon to be celebrated as an Israeli heroe as he shuffles off this
mortal coil) and erstwhile members of terrorist cells (Begin).

Here's an interesting slant someone posted on another forum. I don't
know where he got this from, but it lends spice to the thinking:

"The first wave of modern immigration to Israel, called Aliyah started
in 1881. The Jews bought land from Ottoman and individual Arab
landholders. After Jews established agricultural settlements, tensions
erupted between the Jews and Arabs.

There was no country of Palestine or Israel or Lebanon at this stage.
There was no people called Palestinians back then.

Palestine was a name for an region (not country) that extended in the
north-south direction typically from Raphia (south-east of Gaza) to
the Litani River (now in Lebanon). The western boundary was the sea,
and the eastern boundary was the poorly-defined place where the
Syrian desert began. In various European sources, the eastern
boundary was placed anywhere from the Jordan River to slightly east
of Amman. The Negev Desert was not included.

The idea of an independent nationality for Palestinian Arabs was
greatly boosted by the 1967 Six Day War in which these lands were
conquered by Israel; instead of being ruled by different Arab states
encouraging them to think of themselves as Jordanians or Egyptians,
those in the West Bank and Gaza were now ruled by a state with no
desire to make them think of themselves as Israelis, and an active
interest in discouraging them from regarding themselves as
Egyptians, Jordanians, or Syrians. Moreover, the natives of the West
Bank and the Gaza Strip now shared many interests and problems in
common with each other that they did not share with the
neighboring countries."

Assalamu Alaikum,

Can anybody quote what famous historian, Thomas W Arnold said about so called Arab or Muslim invasion of Spain.

Peace

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Ginghis
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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2006 at 11:04am

Excellent, Excellent!

Jocky, Translate the phrase please.

"La Ilaha illa Llah Muhammadun Rasul Llah"

Truely Duende I am reading history at an alarming rate, there is such a large amount of material addressing this subject. That is why I came to this forum and have created a couple of others in my work place and by email to selected schools of thought. I have elected to query current thinking and attitudes and motivations.

One thing has become clear to me. Muslim responses express restitution, expulsion, destruction, injustice, and determination. Jewish responses express conquest, destruction, homogeneous composition, self-defense, and determination. Third party responses express frustration, indefference, historical ignorance, arrogance, and an overwhelming desire for simple solutions.

It is far to soon and shallow for me to draw any conclusions, but I will say, I would hate to be trying to apply diplomacy and find an exceptable soultion to all parties involved. There is a noticible lack of goodwill in all directions.

I am totally impressed by the level of scholarly insight throughout this discussion. If there is such a thing as getting a "vibe" from disembodied text, I get the feeling there is a lot of passion fueling detailed study of the "root cause" in this controversial subject.

The discussion of hating Isreal but not Jews is eye opening and a distinction I have not heard before. So far it is one ray of light in a difficult situation. I wonder how common that thought is? I have experienced some name calling and disrespect in a few cases.



Edited by Ginghis
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Ginghis
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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2006 at 12:42pm

If you are intrested I can post a few of the replies I have received from others outside this forum.

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