Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

World Politics
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Politics : World Politics
Message Icon Topic: I am seeking knowledge Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 8 Next >>
Author Message
Servetus
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 04 April 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2109
Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2006 at 10:16am

Addendum:

 

Ginghis, here are excerpts from Hans Kung’s book that I referred to above.  I did mention the futility of tracing fractals, and, appropriately enough, what I had forgotten, before revisiting this work this morning, was the relation between the Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot Agreement which preceded it (neither of which seems particularly, or at least directly, related to religion).  Anyway, Kung, as you might know, can be verbose and thus to cut to the chase (and to what I consider the crux of the matter), I liberally abbreviate with ellipses (sorry, then, if it sounds a bit like a CD skipping somewhat randomly about):

 

“… As early as 1916 the British government had made a secret agreement (the Sykes-Picot agreement) with the French over the partition of the Holy Land, which excluded the territory west of the Jordan from Arab territory … In 1917 [Chaim] Weizmann received from Lord Balfour … the official declaration that ‘Her Majesty’s Government’ viewed with favour the establishment of a ‘national home’ for the Jewish people in Palestine … This so-called Balfour Declaration … contains an addition which should not be suppressed.  For the Declaration states at the same time: ‘it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine’ … It was on this precise point that the conflict was to focus … [By 1924] it had long since become evident that the position put forward in the Balfour Declaration was essentially a contradictory one.  It made a decisive contribution towards Palestine becoming one of the most contested lands on earth.  For experts on the situation and leading Zionists knew one thing which was underestimated by many who took a stand in the spirit of European nationalism and colonialism.  Palestine was not the ‘land without people’ into which the ‘people without land’ could simply move … England and France had arbitrarily divided up the whole of the Near and Middle East –breaking the British pledge to the Arabs! –by sometimes arbitrary frontiers and ‘zones of influence’ … And what about the British government?  Having promised Palestine to the Arabs and the Jews during the First World War, in the face of these fronts it increasingly manoeuvred itself into a hopeless policy.  How could it both further the new Jewish home and defend the rights of the old indigenous Arab population at the same time?  That could not work out in the long run …”

 

Enough.  One of the reasons why I, an at times beleaguered Yank, appreciate these excerpts is because over all responsibility in this case is shifted from America to the broad and worthy shoulders of Britain (and France) as the ultimate culprits.  But seriously, I do think, as must Hans Kung, that the Balfour Declaration (and Sykes-Picot) is a relatively fixed point from which to view current problems.  Again, though, please note the adverb in this case, “relatively.”  

 

Best regards,

 

Serv

 

Ref:  Kung, Hans, Judaism between Yesterday and Tomorrow, Continuum Publishing Company, 370 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY, 1995, pp. 288-293



Edited by Servetus
IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2006 at 11:11am

Ginghis,

I am currently writing a paper on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.  I have found the roots of Zionism extend farther back than 1948.  In my opinion, 1948 is the completion of a long process that gave birth to this demon.  There are a number of international factors that lead to this conflict.  However, a "root" cause is more or less a phantom.

The land known today as Israel has changed hands many times.  The Jews have not had control of this land from around 735 BCE.  Its been controlled by the Persians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, Caliphates, Crusaders, Muslim rulers again, Ottomans and the list goes on.  The Philistines, Jews and Christians of the area have all been caught in the middle.

I would say, the interference from external powers has been the leading cause of hostilities rather than the internal struggle.

If I had to narrow it down to a few key events, I would start with these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Judenstaat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah

Not to mention, I've found evidence that Faisal the First of Iraq (or at the time Greater Syria) was working out a deal to allow some jews to relocate to his kingdom.  This invitation (according to some of the sources I've read) was altered to take the land from him. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement

Here's an article on him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal_I_of_Iraq

IP IP Logged
Jockey
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 27 July 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Quote Jockey Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2006 at 11:48am
[Maybe seeking a root cause is not productive. Maybe, here and now, and discusions of the future would yield more peace and optimism.]

Tony Blair rightly said that the only way to resolve the conflict is by UNDOING it's root cause. Therefore, trying to discuss the future without looking at the past and correct the wrong that was done, will only lead to more and more cycles of bloodshed and violence.
From a Muslim perspective, Before discussing the root cause of the so called middle east conflict, we have to first discuss the root of the Muslims' problems alltogether as they are all related and interlinked, and they all share the same root cause. As Muslims, we dont look at ME conflict as a problem between us and Israel, It is only a Muslim problem and only Muslims can san solve it once they are ready...
Its Coming Soon...
IP IP Logged
lovetabuleh
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 March 2006
Location: Congo
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 255
Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2006 at 11:52am

I guess according to who you're audiance is, you may relay this topic at their level of understanding.  for instance, I, an history-unsavy individual, would get a bit confused when speaking in language of amendments, declarations, Lords and Ladies.  All these names and titles become opaque to me and all i can properly digest (you could tell my field is biology) is a more or less accurate picture of the history.  I'm really good at understanding the present situation and how it became though.  :)

 

IP IP Logged
Ginghis
Male Christian
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 28 June 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 55
Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2006 at 1:55pm

 

This discussion is very exciting to me, thank you all.

From others I have asked the same question.

I have had another person say each conflict should be treated as an entity unto itself. He says the bombing of an Islamic family a few weeks ago is the trigger to this present conflict. Up to that point things were moving towards peace. One other person says it is a question of birth right and brings up the question of origin. I have had one person suggest the root cause is Islam itself. He says its nature is intolerant of differences.

Just in this short discourse we are putting root cause in many different places.

The Balflour and Sykes documents have a taint to them.

Ok, we have a few historical references posted. Do me a favor and let us examine "root cause" in terms of human nature if that is allowed. Based on some statements, "we got along fine before 1948" something happened to good will when a state was declared.

Is revenge a word that can be applied to this discussion?

It seems as if those that have taken up arms are saying "we are mad as hell and we arn't going to take it anymore"

IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2006 at 3:39pm

I think revenge could be a word used.  Eye for an eye....problem is no one can seem to remember who blinded who first.

Another factor in the ongoing struggles are stubborness and racism. (Ignoring religion a moment, due to precident that the religions can coexist)

There has been a great deal of propaganda on both sides.  Jews painting Arabs as bloodthirsty killers hellbent on world domination in the western media.  Arabs painting Jews as filthy swine deserving of death because of some ancient slight by the Jews to the Prophet.

Hatred and Racism are human emotions, they lack any divinity.  We are to hate evil, but we are to forbid evil.  You cannot meet evil with evil.

So, I propose to remove religion from the equation and focus on the race and political basis of the conflict. 

The Palestinian peoples have been made second class citizens in their homeland by settlers from Europe with ancient ties to the land that changed hands many times after their ties were cut.  Jews today are generationally removed from the actions in the first part of the 20th Century.

Can you blame the young jewish woman who was born in Jerusalem but her grandmother narrowly escaped death in Poland 66 years ago? 

Can you blame the young palestinian boy who just wants to be able to go to school without having to answer to racist soldiers?

These young people are victims of much greater forces than themselves.  Both are fighting for their way of life and probably don't really care about what happened 58 years ago. 

Racism is playing a very large roll in this attack.  I have seen video of a small girl telling her interviewer that jews are swines and pigs and being praised by the woman as the future of Islam.  I've also seen pictures on this site of Israeli girls signing bombs to be dropped on Palestinians and Lebanese.  These people are teaching their children to hate.

So, what motivates people to teach such hatred to their children?

 

IP IP Logged
Ginghis
Male Christian
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 28 June 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 55
Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2006 at 4:32pm

Yeah, I saw that picture of the young girl signing the bomb. She was smiling. That drove a spike of despair into my utopian optimism.

Maybe it is self preservation, they say it is the most driving of human motivaters. I say that self intrest is near the top also. To some in this world that translates to material gain, to others it is spiritual integrity, or just plain integrity. It also seems like before we can have some self esteem we have to measure it against another way of life.

To our biologist participant the analogy of foreign bodies might spark a thread.

IP IP Logged
Jockey
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 27 July 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Quote Jockey Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2006 at 1:53am
The thing is, it's not possible for two people to sit and discuss a life solution, if they hold very conflicting views about life itself. Muslims look at this worldly life as only second in importance to the eternal life after death. This view naturally leads them to submit completely to the Lord that will determine their fate after this life. therefore the solution to any worldly problem that the muslims will accept is the solution that their faith dictates. That's why i said in my previous posting that the Muslims view the ME conflict as their problem, not a shared problem with Israel, because the solution must be an islamic solution. Israel is only a part of the problem.
Its Coming Soon...
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 8 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com