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Ginghis
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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Topic: I am seeking knowledge
    Posted: 26 July 2006 at 8:13am

 

Greetings and Peace to all.

Ok, I have a confusion and the only way to clear it is to make my own definition.....I think!

 
I have heard the phrase "Root Cause" of this current middle east war, used and defined by the Media, Rice, Perez, a Hezbollah spokesman, the Syrian Ambassador and several of my co-workers. They are all different, all of them. Every time I try to have a discussion with someone, and make a point about what's happening now, they go farther back in history and say, "well look at what happened here".
 
If you were given the task of teaching me about the Israeli, Arab conflict, where would you start in history?
 
Why there?
 
Is there such a thing as a "root cause" that people can agree on?
 
 
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Quote lovetabuleh Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2006 at 9:14am

i wouldn't take it too far into the past... you would need a history professor for that.  the way i usually start it is from the first occupation of palestine by Zionist: 1948

Before that there was peace btw everyone in palestine... there was no problem at all.  just until some jews gathered into a Zionism organization with their slogan: "A land without a people for a people without a land"

that slogan was thier force to occupy palestine...i'm sorry but i just can't understand how these jews overlooked the 8 million palestinians living there at the time. 

So after that first attack- they confescated property, tore down houses to make room for thier establishment... just pushing palestinians out of the way.  slowly the # of palestinans deminished down to i think just 1 or 2 million right now living in palestine/israel.  the rest are refugees living in neighboring countries like Lebanon, syria, egypt...

 

then you get the rebellion from the palestinians (forming groups like hamas) you get rebellion from neighboring countries (Hizbollah, syrian mellitia).. then you get more rebellion from Israelis, .. then you get the killing and the suicide bombing...

then things have gotten so big that the issue of who's land it was in the first place was never brought up anymore.. now the issue is who made the first blow and the israelis are fighting 'terrorists' who could be a threat to attack and bla bla bla...

 if you want to talk about the Israelii issue, i think you should give a brief overview of Palestine's peaceful past, arab's generosity, simplicity.. and then a 180 degree change once the Zionists took over thier lands in 1948.  from then on, there was battles and things only got more mysterious and the truth has been burried.  amerian media doesn't show even an ounce of truth of what's actually happening.  Also what's worse they portray arabs as heathens. 

you then have to give them a different perspective of what's going on than what they see on cnn or fox news.  

 

allah knows best.

 

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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2006 at 1:00pm

Thank you,

I must admit that I have asked this question of several others today and I am awaiting their answers. Scholars (political science professor and a history professor), Clergy, Jews, and yourselves. I work at a University.

 Do others of you agree that 1948 is a good place to start? In the past when I tried to limit the discussion to 1948, I was reminded of Haganah, and Stern and the resistance of 1920 and 1921. Each time, there is an explanation from the past of why the present situation exists. While I am sure I would also like to have the last word or throw the last punch my heart and mind groan with the endlessness of our present situation.

Sometime when I examine this question, the Jews appear to be bad house guests who have totally abused their invitation. Other times it appears that they are totally abused people tossed about and stuffed into a box. It all depends on where I start in history.

 

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Quote Patty Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2006 at 1:21pm

Here is what happened in the 1948 War:

In May 1948, Israel became an independent state after Israel was recognised by the United Nations as a country in its own right within the Middle East. If relations in pre-war Palestine had been fraught with difficulties, these difficulties paled into insignificance after Israel became a state in its own right. Immediately on being granted its independence, Israel was attacked by a number of Arab nations. If Israel had faltered at this first hurdle, she would have ceased to exist as a state regardless of what the United Nations had decreed.

Before World War Two, Haganah had been, from the British viewpoint, a terrorist organisation that used violence to defend the Jewish Agency. Haganah attacked Palestinian Arabs and aspects of British rule in Palestine. By the time Israel had gained its independence, Haganah was effectively the army for Israel. Many members of Haganah had gained military experience during World War Two – ironically fighting for the same British military that they had been attacking before the war.

Israel was attacked on the same day it gained its independence – May 14th. The armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq attacked Israel. With such a combined force attacking Israel, few would have given the new country any chance of survival.

In fact, Israel had internal problems regardless of what was happening on its borders. The regular army had to be used to disband Irgun and the Stern Gang. Both of these had been classed as terrorist organisations by the British in pre-war Palestine. David Ben-Gurion, Prime Minister and Defence Minister wanted the Israeli army to remain non-political and using a combination of diplomacy and force, he removed both groups as a threat. The leaders of both groups were arrested but members of them did join the army. At the height of the 1948 War, Israel’s army numbered 100,000.

Though the attack on Israel was a surprise one, Israel was surprisingly well equipped at a military level. The country had a navy and many in her army were experienced in combat as a result of World War Two. Israel had also bought three B-17 bombers in America on the black market. In July 1948, these were used to bomb the Egyptian capital, Cairo.

The Arab nations that attacked Israel faced one major problem. There was nothing to co-ordinate their attacks. Each essentially attacked as a separate unit rather than as a combined force. However, the Israeli Army was under one single command structure and this proved to be very important. Israeli victories came on all the war fronts.

The Arab nations involved negotiated their own peace talks – a further sign that they were only united by their desire to attack Israel. Egypt signed a peace settlement in February 1949, and over the next few months Lebanon, Jordan and Syria did the same culminating in peace in July 1949. Iraq simply withdrew her forces but did not sign any peace settlement.

As a result of their military victory, Israel was able to expand the territory given to the state by the United Nations. However, this could only be at the expense of the Arab population that lived in these areas.

In the summer of 1949 there was no obvious leader in the Arab world who could head a campaign by the Arabs. Egypt seemed the most likely leader if only because of her size. However, the Egyptian Royal Family was far from popular and it was in this setting that Nasser rose to power. The scene was set for almost perpetual conflict between the Arab nations and Israel that culminated in the 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars.

The 1948 war, which the Israelis referred to as the "War of Independence", claimed 6,000 Israeli lives – but this was only 1% of the nation’s population. The boost the victory gave to the Israelis was huge and put into perspective the 6,000 lives lost. Ironically, those nations that had attacked Israel in May 1948, only lost slightly more men – 7,000. However, the damage to their morale was considerable.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/israel_and_the_1948_war .htm

I have asked the same questions you are asking, Ginghis, but I have not received an answer on the subject.  I mentioned previously that I traced the entire timeline of the Middle Eastern countries, and asked when was there a time of peace.....a time devoid of war and fighting.  I am still waiting for an answer.  I ask this because perhaps we can learn something from this time period (if there was one....what happened to end the fighting for a period of time in this area of the world?)  I would still like to know the answer.

God's Peace,

 



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2006 at 3:35pm

Welcome, Ginghis, from me, a non-Muslim, and good question.  It seems that, in discussions of this type, we quite often are tracing fractals or are following the trunk of a tree only to discover that it is the limb of yet another one.  To switch metaphors, perhaps there is no fixed target.

That said, to my view, I should think that one of the relatively fixed key points, but not the starting point (as there might not be one), is the Balfour Declaration.  Even though Hans Kung might not be considered the world’s expert on the matter, he is nevertheless a preeminent theologian who seeks ecumenical dialogue between and among the three Abrahamic Traditions and, if and when I have his book to hand, I shall try to quote a section of his work, Judaism Between Yesterday and Tomorrow.  In that book, as I perhaps imperfectly recall, Kung refers to problems inherent within the Declaration(s) and which were there from the outset. 

Best regards,

Serv



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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2006 at 3:51pm

Thank you Patty, solid information.


Amalhayati2, I take from your response that the way present day Isreal was inserted into the middle east is a root cause.

I am seeking an Islamic perspective here. I don't think I get it from the Media. Maybe seeking a root cause is not productive. Maybe, here and now, and discusions of the future would yield more peace and optimism.

Is there any win win scenario you can think of that would allow people that have taken up arms to go home and be happy?

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Quote Ginghis Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2006 at 4:04pm
Thank You Serv, I would be the first one at the table if such a 3 way dialogue could happen. I take it from your comment that you believe the roots of this conflict are in religion? Does anyone agree with Serv?
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2006 at 4:23pm

“I take it from your comment that you [Servetus] believe the roots of this conflict are in religion?”

Not necessarily, Ginghis, although, as we all know, it can be difficult, if not impossible, to disentangle religion from politics, especially in the Middle East.  I don’t discount the role of religion in the conflict, though, to be sure, and am even now trying, in my own admittedly flawed way, to address such issues as the provocatively titled “Christian Fanatics Support Israel” in the Current Events forum.  If you are interested and able, please consider joining those discussions as well.  Boxing gloves are sometimes advised (it is politics, after all).  At any rate, you will be welcome. 

Serv

Ref:   http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5998& ; ; ;PN=1



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