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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 6:31am
Originally posted by ZamanH

Our salvation lies only in returning to our faith and not questioning it.

Zaman.

oh, you need to question everything  that is also the way to progress. If you don't question, where is your learning ?

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 6:45am

Originally posted by unity1


Suddenly ,Muslims lost their position and West started to gain power,people present their comments on this historical fact but the true cause of the downfall of muslims is still unknown .

Lets discuss………….. 

It is interesting that the cause of the downfall of muslims or should it be islam, is still unknown, perhaps if one goes to the point where it started to change and see from there...

I think the question then could be, muslims changed because.....

Things change because people change and/or evironment changes then people change.

Well, the ancient Aztec's sudden disappearance is still a mystery

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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 6:50am

Angel, you have made some very good points. 

I think, though, that it might help to think of the west as not so much a place as a way of life (secularism, materialism, and so forth).

And to think of Islam not so much a religion but also as a way of life practiced by all its adherents (God consciousness), and therefore a 'nation', as in ummah, or community of believers (who do live all over the world).

I am not saying all 'westerners' are secular materialists, nor that all Muslims are practicing a life of God consciousness, but the generalization is, I think, what makes a lot of Muslims compare the 'west' with 'Islam' the way they do.

I don't think it is so much the 'western people' against the 'Islamic people' as it is what are thought of as 'western' values against 'Islamic' values.  Maybe this is just confusing things more!  Anyway, I hope that helps a bit to explain what seems to be the 'west' versus 'Islamic' rhetoric of so many.

Peace, ummziba.

 

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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 8:30am
Originally posted by ummziba

Angel, you have made some very good points. 

I think, though, that it might help to think of the west as not so much a place as a way of life (secularism, materialism, and so forth).

No, I don't think that would work, for one there are many way of lifes.

And to think of Islam not so much a religion but also as a way of life practiced by all its adherents (God consciousness), and therefore a 'nation', as in ummah, or community of believers (who do live all over the world).

If I'm not mistaken this is already and has been.  I guess nation could be as in unmmah but I don't agree with it for the reason I mentioned that nation denotes a place/country, Islam isn't.

[quote]I am not saying all 'westerners' are secular materialists, nor that all Muslims are practicing a life of God consciousness, but the generalization is, I think, what makes a lot of Muslims compare the 'west' with 'Islam' the way they do.

I don't think it is so much the 'western people' against the 'Islamic people' as it is what are thought of as 'western' values against 'Islamic' values.  Maybe this is just confusing things more!  Anyway, I hope that helps a bit to explain what seems to be the 'west' versus 'Islamic' rhetoric of so many.[/quote]

I don't know, I think its perhaps Democracy it seems to be the only thing left.

But islam v's west is not really correct, one is a location and the other isn't its like comparing apples and oranges. The mistake of islam/muslims is thinking that the west is Christianity, its not Christianity. It's like saying / having the underlining message, that the west is america and america is the west, it is simply not true. How would be if others thought of the Middle east as or equals islamic? which in reality its not, not all of the Middle east or its people are islamic. As it is Arabs are generally thought of as muslims, and this is not true, not all arabs are muslims. The East as I said before is not islam nor is islam the west and doesn't get called that or compared nor is there an underlining message that its so, so why then is it only with the west ? now I think that is the question

Now as for the history and why the sudden downfall of muslims, well that still remains a mystery  



Edited by Angel
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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 10:53am

I quite agree with Unity1 in saying that the main cause of the 'downfall' of Muslims is that they no longer follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, this is evident everywhere.  But, how to we do anything about this?  Education is certainly the key, as well as good example.

Muslims need to pay attention to how they are perceived by others.  Being good role models (along the lines of the perfect role model, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), would do a lot to influence people.

Ensuring all members of the ummah get a good education would be most helpful as well - there is a high degree of illiteracy in the Muslim world.  How can a person follow the Qur'an and Sunnah if they cannot even read them?  And I don't mean Muslims needs to learn Arabic right away, good translations in the persons mother tongue are a good place to start.  Then, we need to be supportive and helpful to others in learning Arabic so every Muslim has the opportunity to read and understand Allah's message.

Muslims need to support one another in ensuring we live as Allah intended, by the glorious criterion He set down in the Qur'an.  And I don't mean by force, but again, by good example and education.

So, education, especially literacy, is of the utmost importance.  And next to that has to be an ummah that sets a good example to one another and the rest of the world by living in the model set by the Prophet (pbuh).

And this is my humble opinion.

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 11:09am

Angel,

I do understand the points you are making.  You are correct to say comparing the west to Islam is like comparing oranges and apples, in the way that you perceive 'west' and 'Islam'.  However, I don't think I made my point clearly enough.

What I was trying to get across to you is how I perceive some Muslims view things, so that you could understand why they seem to compare the west and Islam.  It is not the same way you perceive these two things.

When I hear or see the word west (or western), I do not think 'Christian'.  What I think is north America, Europe, Australia and other such places where secular democracy is the norm.  That, to me, defines 'west'.

When I think Islam or Islamic or Muslim, I think the entire worldwide ummah, no countries, no ethnicities, no colour...only the community of believers, which I think of as a 'nation' (not in the way you think of nation).

So, when you see Muslims comparing these two things, you are looking at it from your perspective, which makes the comparison wrong, and you are correct in that, from your perspective.

When Muslims (and I don't speak for all, but am just trying to clarify here) compare these two things, they are making the comparisons from their perspective.

So, when I think west, I think: secular, materialistic, not God conscious.  Of course this is not correct, only a stereotype, but it is what I think when I hear 'west'.  When I hear Islam, I think of God conscious believers all over the world, and of course, this doesn't hold true in every case either.

Maybe I am 'beating a dead horse'.  I am not saying either view is right or wrong, Angel, only that both sides have a completely different perspective of what west and Islam means. 

I think I am being as clear as mud  !  Oh well, I tried.  Do you see what I mean at all?  (I hope I am not annoying you, dear!)

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2005 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by ummziba

When I hear or see the word west (or western), I do not think 'Christian'.  What I think is north America, Europe, Australia and other such places where secular democracy is the norm.  That, to me, defines 'west'.

I sometimes think that too

When I think Islam or Islamic or Muslim, I think the entire worldwide ummah, no countries, no ethnicities, no colour...only the community of believers, which I think of as a 'nation' (not in the way you think of nation).

So, when you see Muslims comparing these two things, you are looking at it from your perspective, which makes the comparison wrong, and you are correct in that, from your perspective.

When Muslims (and I don't speak for all, but am just trying to clarify here) compare these two things, they are making the comparisons from their perspective.

So, when I think west, I think: secular, materialistic, not God conscious.  Of course this is not correct, only a stereotype, but it is what I think when I hear 'west'.  When I hear Islam, I think of God conscious believers all over the world, and of course, this doesn't hold true in every case either.

I understand, I see it from your angle

Maybe I am 'beating a dead horse'.  I am not saying either view is right or wrong, Angel, only that both sides have a completely different perspective of what west and Islam means. 

Agree

I think I am being as clear as mud  !  Oh well, I tried.  Do you see what I mean at all?  (I hope I am not annoying you, dear!)

Peace, ummziba.

No you are not annoying, I see what you mean 

So what of History now

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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2005 at 12:16am

The progress of Muslims actually started after the end of the rule of the 1st four rightly guided Caliphes and ended approximately before or after 12th Century.

Muslims created Ottoman empire which was to make deep inroads in to Europe and the Great Mughal Empire of India was yet to created in the fourteenth century.



Yes, I agree that these days Ulemas donot concentrate on developing relations between human beings and only want muslims to become limited in their approach.

Only thing that is common amongst all the Muslim is their religion. We can't hope to unite if we don't make ourselves strong in our religion. Ulemas alone can guide us back to our faith.

Zaman



Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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