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Aquinian
 
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bullet Topic: Creation of the Heavens and the Earth
    Posted: 04 July 2006 at 1:23pm

How long did it take God to create the heavens and the earth?  I came across a website that offers these quotes from the Quran.  The website is:

http://www.secularislam.org/guide/mirza.htm

Quran-7:54: Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran-10:3: Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran- 11:7: He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

DIFFERENT DURATIONS:

Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

Quran- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

Quran-41:12: So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

Any mention of Christianity on this thread will be considered ad hominem and is irrelevant.  That goes for Andalus, mainly.  The fact that I am a Christian has nothing to do with the validity of this claim I am making against Islam; therefore, pointing out a problem with Christianity has no relevance to these assertions.  This is something I've noticed that people do often here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

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superme
 
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bullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 2:13pm

When the universe coming into existance, the earth the sun and the moon were not available as the tools to measure the days. If the above 2, 6, or 8 days is talking about our days therefore it is days for our thinking consumption, they can't be our days.

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Aquinian
 
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bullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by superme

When the universe coming into existance, the earth the sun and the moon were not available as the tools to measure the days. If the above 2, 6, or 8 days is talking about our days therefore it is days for our thinking consumption, they can't be our days.

That doesn't make any sense.

Why would Allah use different numbers?  To confuse us?

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bullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by Aquinian

Originally posted by superme

When the universe coming into existance, the earth the sun and the moon were not available as the tools to measure the days. If the above 2, 6, or 8 days is talking about our days therefore it is days for our thinking consumption, they can't be our days.

That doesn't make any sense.

Why would Allah use different numbers?  To confuse us?

The astromers assumed that the universe was 16 billion years old. Than it was modified to over than 13 billion years old. These two dating are from the tools available here and they are notorious. But science always changing and the scientist are aware of this.

The any day used for anything outside this earth can not be our days.

He does not confuse us but to make us start thinking beyond this earth, beyond our time, beyond this physical life.

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Andalus
 
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bullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Aquinian

How long did it take God to create the heavens and the earth?  I came across a website that offers these quotes from the Quran.  The website is:

http://www.secularislam.org/guide/mirza.htm

Quran-7:54: Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran-10:3: Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran- 11:7: He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

DIFFERENT DURATIONS:

Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

Quran- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

Quran-41:12: So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

Any mention of Christianity on this thread will be considered ad hominem and is irrelevant.  That goes for Andalus, mainly. 

Your knoweldge of logic is nescient. Bringing up Christianity does not mean anything. How it would be brought up is a different story. As usual, your contributions are half finished and ambiguous.

If you charge that Islam is wrong because of the creation accounts, and given you are a "Christian", then two replies are in order:

1) An explanation of the time line and

2) and decleration that you should reject your faith due to some problem in its account. If you faily to reject it after such an account is found with problems, then you are guilty of special pleading.

So anyone is free to add in the problems in your faith if it is the same problem that exists as your allegation, andf it is not "ad hominem" (please refer to a basic intro to logic before you cut up the terms using them nonsensically)

 

Originally posted by Aquin

 The fact that I am a Christian has nothing to do with the validity of this claim I am making against Islam; therefore, pointing out a problem with Christianity has no relevance to these assertions.  This is something I've noticed that people do often here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Actually it does. You charge there is a problem with the time line in the creation story, which is a problem for Islam.

This creates two different points: 1) The reply to your charge and 2) the reply to the fallacy of your acceptance of a faith while a problem exists in your faith that you feel is a stumbling block for another faith.

(no ad hominems)

You want your cake and eat it. You want to believe in the night of the living dead as given in the NT as a historical event (Zombies on the march in Jerusalem), yet you want to reject another faith because you think something is irrational. You want to deny another faith for some reason, yet it is ok for your faith to have that very same reason. You are entirely without merit, and so far, everyone one of your contributions have not been discussions, but "passive agressive" jabs.

I will leave you to whoever wishes to engage you in your topic. But I wanted to clearify your fallacious demand for immunity from being exposed a boor. The last thing you want is having to scramble to save face in light of your molestation of the bounds of hyprocisy.

 

   

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bullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 7:22pm

Andalus, you are making an ad hominem fallacy.  I'm sorry you are failing to see that:

  1. A makes claim X.
  2. There is something objectionable about A.
  3. Therefore claim X is false.

1.  Aquinian makes the claim that Islam is false (based on the creation timeline contradiction)

2.  There is something objectionable about Aquinian; namely, his faith has a creation timeline contradiction as well.

3.  Therefore, Aquinian's claim against Islam is false.

This is the argument you are making and it is failing, Andalus.  I'm sorry.

The objectionable part about me is that my faith supposedly has the same problem with the timeline of creation.  You are attacking the messenger, Andalus.  If I was an atheist, you could not make the argument you are making because Christianity comes into the equation.  Do you understand?  I will say it again.  If I was an atheist, then you could make the claim about Christianity and I would agree.  "Yes, that goes for Christianity too.  Both Islam and Christianity are untrue because their Creation timelines don't make sense."  Do you understand what I am saying?

Unfortunately, you failed to correctly argue why the timeline of creation in Islam is without error.  You seem insistent on attacking Christianity in response to my arguments against Islam rather than defending your faith.  This only indicates that you find your faith indefensible. 

As for Christianity, I make no defense of it on any rational basis.  How can one argue rationally for Jesus Christ walking on water?  How does one make logical sense of the blind being healed with water and dirt?  Make all the arguments against Christianity that you want.  It will still be true and Islam will still be false.  The miracles of Christ and Christendom are proof enough for me.

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bullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by Aquinian

Andalus, you are making an ad hominem fallacy.  I'm sorry you are failing to see that:

  1. A makes claim X.
  2. There is something objectionable about A.
  3. Therefore claim X is false.

1.  Aquinian makes the claim that Islam is false (based on the creation timeline contradiction)

2.  There is something objectionable about Aquinian; namely, his faith has a creation timeline contradiction as well.

3.  Therefore, Aquinian's claim against Islam is false.

This is the argument you are making and it is failing, Andalus.  I'm sorry.

Once more I beg you to take a basic course in logic.

1) I never stated that, "there is something wrong with you, therefore you are wrong".

 

Lets look at my first reply:

Originally posted by first reply

Your knoweldge of logic is nescient. Bringing up Christianity does not mean anything. How it would be brought up is a different story. As usual, your contributions are half finished and ambiguous.

If you charge that Islam is wrong because of the creation accounts, and given you are a "Christian", then two replies are in order:

1) An explanation of the time line and

2) and decleration that you should reject your faith due to some problem in its account. If you faily to reject it after such an account is found with problems, then you are guilty of special pleading.

So anyone is free to add in the problems in your faith if it is the same problem that exists as your allegation, andf it is not "ad hominem" (please refer to a basic intro to logic before you cut up the terms using them nonsensically)

 

As you can see, there is nothing about "Aquinian", only your argument.

 

Here is the second portion of my reply, please read close:

 

Originally posted by first reply

Actually it does. You charge there is a problem with the time line in the creation story, which is a problem for Islam.

This creates two different points: 1) The reply to your charge and 2) the reply to the fallacy of your acceptance of a faith while a problem exists in your faith that you feel is a stumbling block for another faith.

(no ad hominems)

You want your cake and eat it. You want to believe in the night of the living dead as given in the NT as a historical event (Zombies on the march in Jerusalem), yet you want to reject another faith because you think something is irrational. You want to deny another faith for some reason, yet it is ok for your faith to have that very same reason. You are entirely without merit, and so far, everyone one of your contributions have not been discussions, but "passive agressive" jabs.

I will leave you to whoever wishes to engage you in your topic. But I wanted to clearify your fallacious demand for immunity from being exposed a boor. The last thing you want is having to scramble to save face in light of your molestation of the bounds of hyprocisy

 

Once again, there is nothing that states the argument is wrong because of Aquinian.

 

You committed the fallacy of equivication. You dishonestly placed in the following line (I repasted your line 2 just below), where you have tried to equate "a problem in your creation time line" with "an objection to Aquinian". These are not the same. 

Your acceptance of your faith with a problem in your creation account, yet a rejection of Islam with your allegation of a creation problem does not constitute "ad hominem". "Ad hominen" is an attack on the person, instead of the argument. Demomstrating "special pleading" is a case where you reject X for A, yet you accept Y even though it has A. This is an "attack" on your argument. Valid. Completely valid. Your denial of it is more obfuscating on your part.

 

I am not sure how else to spell it out to you. I am guessing it is your ignorance of the topic that has lead you to this difficult impasse for yourself, or you are just playing games.

 

This is the line in question with equivication problems.

Originally posted by Aquinian

2.  There is something objectionable about Aquinian; namely, his faith has a creation timeline contradiction as well.

 

Nothing in my reply coresponds to this. Absolutely nothing. I am not going to keep arguing with you about this. I have shown you, I have spelt it out for you, and unless you plan on "specifically" showing me otherwise, I consider the matter closed.

 

Originally posted by Aquinian

The objectionable part about me is that my faith supposedly has the same problem with the timeline of creation.  You are attacking the messenger, Andalus. 

"You" are not the same as "your acceptance of Christianity with a creation account problem". I am revealing your double standard, which does not mean I am accepting or agreeing with your allegations about my faith.

 Showing the gaping fallacy of special pleading that you are comitting is not a fallacy on my part, but intellectual dishonesty on your part. It is not attacking you (you are not equivalent to your act of special pleading), and your claim that it is, is a "deflection" by you.

Originally posted by Aquinain

If I was an atheist, you could not make the argument you are making because Christianity comes into the equation.  Do you understand? 

Irrelevant. You are not an athiest, you are a Christian and your double standard is a falllacy.

If you were an athiest I would have a different reply.

 

Originally posted by Aquinian

 I will say it again.  If I was an atheist, then you could make the claim about Christianity and I would agree. 

1) Irrelevant. You are a Christian and you have a creation account with holes and you decided to plant a polemical link as a way to show a problem with Islam with allegations of a creaiton time line problem.

2) Although irrelevant, for the sake of argument, if you were an athiest, any mention of accepting a flawed creation account in any religion would be "irrelevant" given the athiest would reject any faith with a flawed creation account. In other words, the charge would simply be "irrelevant", and a deflection, or "strawman" by me.

So I am actually puzzled at your last statement about making the statement to an athiest. It is simply nonsensical. You desperation at trying to get yourself excused from having to look like a intellectually dishonest hypocrit is actually funny. Your statment makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by Aquinian

 

 "Yes, that goes for Christianity too.  Both Islam and Christianity are untrue because their Creation timelines don't make sense."  Do you understand what I am saying?

I understand that you are absolutely confused, and depserately desire any removal of yourself from your acceptance of the irrationalities found in your bible that you want to reject another faith for, while you stand on a soap box and attempt to make points of my faith that your own faith is guilty of.

In your above "dazed" discussion, you have left out that such a dialogue would mean that I have agreed to the allegations of the creation story account as flawed, and the athiest would not care about remarks about Christianity because as an athiest it would be entirely irrelevant.

As for you, it is completely relevant, and the demonstration of your double standard (special pleading) is not an ad hominem, but a valid point to your thinking, and hits home your attempt at cheap sophistry.

Originally posted by Aquinian

Unfortunately, you failed to correctly argue why the timeline of creation in Islam is without error.  You seem insistent on attacking Christianity in response to my arguments against Islam rather than defending your faith.  This only indicates that you find your faith indefensible. 

Irrelevant.

Unfortunately you are unable to comprehend very well what you read, as I stated I was addressing your erroneous complaint and "rules".

My attack was not on you or Christianity, but your hypocrisy and fallacious method of discourse. Please keep these things straight and stay focused.

 

Originally posted by Aquinian

As for Christianity, I make no defense of it on any rational basis.  How can one argue rationally for Jesus Christ walking on water?  How does one make logical sense of the blind being healed with water and dirt?  Make all the arguments against Christianity that you want.  It will still be true and Islam will still be false.  The miracles of Christ and Christendom are proof enough for me.

You are a boor.

No one is talking about mircales. Your attempt at a really bad strawman is more of your debauchery.

Stay focused. The discussion is your attempt to remove yourself from your dreaded theological hypocrisy. This tells me that your acceptance of your faith is not only irrational, but extremely problematic.

Hope this helps.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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bullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 10:29pm

Aquinian,

The day in those verses does not mean the 24 hour day. It was also not that God created U on day 1, V on day 2, W on day 3, X on day 4, Y on day 5 and Z on day 6 and went to take a rest on the 7th day because it tired God. In Islamic view, God does not tire, neither drowses nor sleeps.

So, there were six stages (six days) in which the entire Universe was created. We are not bothered about how that was done or who and which were created first and last. A day in the sight of the Lord can be thousands of years. If you understand the speed of light at which travels, you might be able to understand that. If a planet or a star makes one complete rotation in one year, it's day is a year! Mercury takes 58.65 earth days to rotate once, Venus takes 243 earth days to rotate once, the giants Jupiter and Saturn rotate at 10.30 earth hours everyday.

So, I hope your six day business has been answered.

Regarding your query on :"DIFFERENT DURATIONS:

Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

Quran- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…", I will explain that for you:

Again those are not 2 x 24 hour days.  It means the earth also took two stages to complete. Then in the other 4 stages (not 4 x 24 hour days) the mountains, vegetation, etc., were created. 

We know and understand well that the job was not just completed in 6 x 24 earth days. The Martians would agree with that too, because Mars rotates in 1.03 earth days.

Regarding Jesus walking on water, making wine out of water and turning two loaves of bread and a few fish to feed thousands, I don't believe that because it sounds ridiculous and unbelieveable. If he had done that, the entire Israel or all the Jews would have accepted him and followed him without doing any work and everyday in Israel would have been a Sabbath, all hailing the Lord 24 x7 x 365. I don't know how that got into the gospels. 

Hope this helped.



Edited by bmzsp
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