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 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : Comments & Complaints
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Patty
 
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Quote Patty Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 5:01pm

I love most of your posts, Megatron....but I don't quite agree with your opinion that most "religious people are stupid."  I just don't think being religious make you stupid.  Many atheists are stupid, in my humble opinion.  Jesuit priests attend college for 17 years.  They are deeply religious, but hardly stupid.  It isn't really fair to paint all people with a such a broad brush because they are religious and may disagree with some of your opinons.  For instance, whisper and I don't agree on much, well he doesn't agree with me on anything that I know of, but I don't think for a second that he is stupid....but I do believe he is religious.

It's not fair to put a dunce cap on a person and call them stupid just because they are devoted to their religion.  I do agree there are stupid people, but the fact that they are, or are not, religious has little to do with it.  (And, yep, I know I'm not the sharpest tack on the wall, but I do the best I can with what brain God gave me.)

Peace to You.

 

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2006 at 7:59pm

Well the problem I have within my own faith is very disturbing and at times, I felt like relapsing to what I was before, a journeyman in God's universe. Honestly my belief now hasn't changed much since being Muslim the only difference is that I call myself Muslim. I have had Muslims tell me I must hate the things God hates and love the things God loves. However true that maybe I know Muslims who have told me that God "hates Jews therefore I should hate them." Similarly many Imams and Sheikhs would perhaps say the same thing to those who follow them because they are superb linguist and perhaps can persuade the masses with their dialetical arguments.

I myself question everything because everything is not as stable, because, like I've said before if truth is absolute there would be no question. I understand the Qur'an addresses belief and God's predetermination of every life form potential, existing and non-existing in this physical dimension.

Part of Megatron's statement is true actually....... The religious masses do not question everything. The usual response to a lot of questioning is that "If it says so in the book it is true." Well according to the Qur'an God calls us to investigate didn't anyone here read my post on "Philosophy is Obligatory?!?" in general discussion. I'm not some apostate, however I am one who is a rationalist philosopher who does question everything. People usually say questioning is silent, I say those people who silently question mask their symptom of blindness.

We all are scientist in religion therefore must be examples of God's word and investigate the truth that exist in this world. Even if our search does not lead us to the answers at least it brings us closert to a type of understanding of God.

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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2006 at 4:14am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

I am sure you would remember a Prophet (as) asking Allah swt that he wants to see Him. The answer was, you can not bear it but if this mountain can bear the 'tajaali' then you will, mountain was crushed and the Prophet (as) fell unconcious and started repenting as soon as he woke up.

Now some learned people of his nation ask the same question that we will not believe you untill we see Allah swt plainly. A lightening struck them and they were all dead.

Now another example a Prophet (as) asked Allah swt that please show me how You raise dead back to life. Allah swt asked, don't you have belief. Prophet (as) replied, i do have belief but i want to believe with certainity. So Allah swt told him to slaughter four birds and mix their parts up and then put then on four different hills. Then call them and the pieces all flew, joining right piece to right bird and came to him as original bird.

Followers of Isa (as) asked for a table of food to be brought down and they were granted

Now quraysh asked for any sort of miracle but were not granted it.

Allah swt says He has put every example in Holy Quran for people but humans are ever querlsome. Just take a look at these examples and think, ponder, why was it granted in few instances and not the other. It goes straight back to the complete knowledge of Allah swt. He knows who is asking out of sincerity and who is asking for sake of asking. Question the laws, for sure question em but in a manner suited to the Words of Allahs, with sincerity and hope of learning the truth behind them. Knowing that even though this moment you dont understand them, there is no way in world they wrong, its just your understanding which is falling short. Question them as a Prophet (as) questioned the resurrection to have certainity in your belief.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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amah
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Quote amah Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2006 at 4:31am
Fatima for your post!!!
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2006 at 8:33am

Fatima said:>>>>>I am sure you would remember a Prophet (as) asking Allah swt that he wants to see Him. The answer was, you can not bear it but if this mountain can bear the 'tajaali' then you will, mountain was crushed and the Prophet (as) fell unconcious and started repenting as soon as he woke up. <<<<<<<

This Prophet is Moses

Fatima said:>>>>>Now another example a Prophet (as) asked Allah swt that please show me how You raise dead back to life. Allah swt asked, don't you have belief. Prophet (as) replied, i do have belief but i want to believe with certainity. So Allah swt told him to slaughter four birds and mix their parts up and then put then on four different hills. Then call them and the pieces all flew, joining right piece to right bird and came to him as original bird.<<<<<<<

This prophet you mentioned I believe is Abraham?

Fatima so basically from the end part of your message to me that my understanding is falling short because I question? Or is it because I question but fail to understand? Apparently you haven't read the thread I made in the General Discussion section a Philosopher IBN RUSHD whom you have mentioned here as one of your examples of notable scholars! IBN RUSHD even himself question the attributes of God similar to how I question them but all this discussion about God's knowledge is not the point.

I tend to think what I say even if I'm clear and descriptive you still run away with paragraphs of my words and use them to justify your position for whatever reason. The point here is that my faith in Islam dwindles not because of the Qur'an but mostly because of people. The fact that congregation is essential to Islam I cannot uphold this necessity if I do not feel a sense of brotherhood. Islam, as I have understood for 6 whole years is cultural specific and my original intent on converting to Islam was on the premise that it was not culturally specific although it is.

Call me "the devil in black" if you will but this lack of sensation in brotherhood has open up my eyes to a world of other things that I had originally jumped in without even considering them. I'd like to say that at the time of my conversion I was still grieving my mother. So perhaps I converted to Islam to feel in the hole from the loss of my mother. There are many variables in my life to why I converted. I never converted to Islam to have a deeper faith in God because my faith in God has always remained. I was always a believer in a single Artisan-even while I was a Baptist Christian.

Just because things were written in book doesn't mean that mistakes happen and I'm not saying that the Qur'an has any mistakes actually however humans are fallible beings. God is the absolute truth and I do not believe that God's knowledge can be contained in any book of human assimilation (Yes the Qur'an as it is written down on this earthly plane was assimilated by humans although its revelation was not). I'm no Arabic linguist so I'm in no position to critique it but more importantly I was saying that in the Qur'an God calls people to investigate, so this is what I'm doing. If you're a believer in God's will then you'd understand as well as agree that he even wills people to Islam and away Islam for a special purpose.

Perhaps he wills people for a specific time and wills them away for another reason. But hey, if we get into this discussion we'd have to talk about Freewill right? Well anyway my point is that faith in a divine revelation isn't always easy to maintain and I'm sorry that you moderators cannot understand that. It appears that most of you do not even have faith in me or even compassion for my struggles. Most of the sincere messages I receive are from non-muslims on this website! How sad, this behavior is evident and evidence for me as valid proof on why I truly struggle in Islam!

BTW I leave you with this quote from my thread said by the GREAT IMAM AVERROES:

and the more complete cognizance of the art in them is, the more complete cognizance of the Artisan-And if the Law (The Qur'an) has recommended and urged consideration of existing things then it is evident that what this name indicates is either obligatory or recommended by the Law



Edited by Israfil
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2006 at 9:16am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Brother i dont think your understanding is falling short because you question. You only get understanding through questioning, thinking and pondering over matters. You need to honestly ask yourself, why are you asking? To figure out the ruling or to prove it wrong?

I am not that good at expressing and writing some thing or reading hard solid words for that matters. But let me tell you that if any of us on the board do try to reason with you then only because we want you to have belief with certainity. We are trying to clear things not prove you wrong. What would proving you wrong or pushing you away from deen give us. Actually that might even anger our dear Lord and result in our losing the way. Only your own will tell you off about bad stuff even though it can result in you thinking bad of them. If your mum tells you to quit smoking because you could end up with lung cancer and another smoker sympathizes with you, who is the one who really cares?

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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amah
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Quote amah Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2006 at 11:09am
Bismillah Arrahmaan Arraheem.

Assalaamualaikum Brother Israfil,

This is very difficult to explain to you, believe me.

You need explanation, we will give it Insha Allah to the best of our abilities... you need moral support, you will get plenty here... you need help to understand Islam better, everyone will be more than willing. But you know why people start shying away, it is because of your reaction brother. Brother please try to see things from our point of view. It appears you feel offended by what we say so we refrain from hurting you...YES, no one wants to hurt you. But I think you do not believe that.

I think, you do not have very supportive people around you wherever you live, hence you have developed these feelings. Islam IS about brotherhood. But we don't get to see it much...but if you really look around you will see it....even right here on this forum. So many people here are good to you, Iam talking about Muslims too. When things go wrong, sometimes we have to look at ourselves and question ourselves "am I doing something wrong that is taking away some people from me?" Sometimes, unknowingly, we give some signs to people.

It is ok to ask questions. Allah asked us to "ponder" over the Quran, not question its authenticity (as a muslim). As a muslim I will quote the Quran because they are Allah's words, better than anything in this world, but will you like it if I use words from the Quran? Why do some people get offended if we use Allah's words so often?

I hope you are understanding me. Brother, the way you want us to be more receptive to you, you too need to be more receptive to us. Sincere advice from this sister, please read more of the Quran (and ponder over it) and ask Allah for Hidayah. Try to forget the people who are of no help, there is no helper like Allah, there is no protector like Allah. May Allah guide us all.

Our duas are with you
Sincerely
Your sister in Deen.


Edited by amah
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2006 at 11:14am

Israfil's situation is very sad indeed, as it appears his faith and proper understanding of Islam is weak.  Over the years he has been warned and cautioned concerning philosophy.  Some early scholars concerned themselves with debate and logical discussions only to find themeselves astray and/or distorting Islam.  If we simply follow the Quran in dealing with issues, both men of letters and common people would adhere firmly to Divine Guidance.  Allah says with respect to protecting His Quran: "Verily, it is We Who hae sent down the revelation and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)." 15:9

 

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