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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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Shams Zaman
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Quote Shams Zaman Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 12:06pm
I don't know how people can live without the concept of God?? May be they are unable to think or ponder with open eyes.

First who is to decide that what is right and what is wrong? One may give absolute logic in favour of drinking or womanising, some may prove bribery as absolute normal; some may declare homosexuality to be a personal and private affair. While others may destroy half of the mankind in the cause of National Interest, (like of the United States), and some may kill thousands of innocent in the name of Nationalism as was done in case of World War 1. Morality without divine rule has a varying concept and there is no yard stick for judgement.

 

All give conclusive logic and reasons to justify their actions. Presently all seems to be convinced that whatever set of rules or religion they follow is the right path. George Bush directs his actions towards eliminating evil and not for any reward while Osama also holds the same claim. So are all individuals’ right in their claims? Even once every individual had a varying sense of judgement?

 If everyone is not right then who is right and;

What is right? And;

Who set the rules of what is right and what is wrong???

 

The answer is simple God created this world and He sets the rules for this world. Obviously he has set one set of rules for us.

If there is no divine reward or punishment then God is unjust (and this is absolutely impossible). Why? Because! This world is imperfect, and God can’t do that to us, by creating an imperfect world and forgetting us.

 

Imagine of a child who got birth in the poorest country of Africa or Asia and died in the same very conditions due to hunger, disease and poverty.

 

He did not opt for this kind of life. He would have also loved to live like of a Saudi King or a Royal family member. But to be born in a family of his choice was not an option for him.

 

Secondly, how would you deliver justice to special cases like of Adolf Hitler or Genghis Khan or Mussolini etc who killed millions of innocent people?? (You can certainly feel the pain much more than me for being a Jew as it appears to be from your writing). But none of them could ever be brought to justice. Even if they would have, merely by hanging them to death or giving them the lethal injection, by no means can be termed as justice. The only justice for them can be delivered in the Hereafter through the hands of God.

 

God doesn’t act abruptly or hastily. Like if God’s book (Quran) is being desecrated or some one is being murdered or being raped or being tortured and he or she cries for God to seek for His help, will the wrath be let loose on the criminal? Surely, no angel will descend to save him/ her and neither God will immediately come for his rescue. So does this mean that God is unkind or can’t see the injustice being done? And if He can see why doesn’t He act or react?

 

Because God is the most wise and he doesn’t take abrupt decisions. Certainly all good and evil acts will be registered and the punishment and reward will be given in the hereafter according to the deeds. If God acts abruptly then no one will commit any such act and there will be no test. He certainly gives us time to repent and seek forgiveness, but once he gets hold of someone then it’s severe, too severe (hell).

Unfortunately we all think that we have got the ticket to heaven or salvation. Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc all think the same way. But this is not the case; salvation is not in keeping particular types of names, or in belonging to a particular race or believing in absurd ideas.

If there would have been no God I would have done anything to satisfy my whims and wishes, everything murder, rape, anything.

If this is the only life what to care for just enjoy these 30-40 years and disappear!!

Shams Zaman  

smszmn72@yahoo.cm
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 1:26pm

Originally posted by ketchup

What is immoral?  Everyone has values... I will not kill, steal, commit adultery etc I respect my elders and the world around me.

The point is, who defines these morals? For us, its very clear from our faith. But how do you get your morals? Who has defined them for you? Why do you think, that you should not kill, steal, commit adultary. Just for example, for you 'adultery' is immoral, but for the most of the westreners, even the word itself is strange. They can't think that life could exist without boyfriend/girlfriend relations. Or perhaps, you may not count these "?friend" relationship as "adultary". Do you? But for people of the faith, any sex outside marriage is considered "adultary" and hence a abominable act. Similarly, the concept of "Dating" is a norm among people without faith, they even encourage/support/promote their children for it; whereas, this is totally a strange thing for people with faith. But again, we have what we call a divine guidance to live our lives in this world. I think, these divine guidelines form the superlative set of moral values that the people without faith, like yourself, love to make them their own corner stone. I have yet to know any moral value, that you think, is not present among these divine guidelines.

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Ketchup
 
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Quote Ketchup Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by ketchup

What is immoral?  Everyone has values... I will not kill, steal, commit adultery etc I respect my elders and the world around me.

The point is, who defines these morals? For us, its very clear from our faith. But how do you get your morals? Who has defined them for you? Why do you think, that you should not kill, steal, commit adultary. Just for example, for you 'adultery' is immoral, but for the most of the westreners, even the word itself is strange. They can't think that life could exist without boyfriend/girlfriend relations. Or perhaps, you may not count these "?friend" relationship as "adultary". Do you? But for people of the faith, any sex outside marriage is considered "adultary" and hence a abominable act. Similarly, the concept of "Dating" is a norm among people without faith, they even encourage/support/promote their children for it; whereas, this is totally a strange thing for people with faith. But again, we have what we call a divine guidance to live our lives in this world. I think, these divine guidelines form the superlative set of moral values that the people without faith, like yourself, love to make them their own corner stone. I have yet to know any moral value, that you think, is not present among these divine guidelines.

I think you have answered your own question.  What is socially acceptable in one culture is not socially acceptable in another.. thats culture.   I am probably guilty of all the sins you depise but in my moral code of conduct i believe as long as I am not causing harm or destruction to those around me then I am a "good" person.  Belief/faith is a completely different matter.. I should point out for the record that I was brought up in as a christian, with the christian set of values.. but even from a very young age I never believed in a god.    If you cut out the religion side of it the bible is a very good read but to me it is only a story.... If this all makes me a bad person then so be it.. I could burn in hell if you like.. but as I don't believe in a hell I can't.

What I do have is a conscience.

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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 2:58pm

 Amad and Shams, thank for your contributions.

I will give them the consideration they merit and reply.

I look forward to responses from any learned Muslims who can help with the the questions of 'free will', 'determinism', and 'faith'. 



Edited by Tim Evans
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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 5:10pm

Amad and Shams, please explain these issues in the most complicated or the most clear way possible. And then in peace, please be quiet, so that the rest of us can seriously study and respond to your answers. If you can't do this please tell us about it. We are not 'un-knowing'.

1) 'free will'

2) 'determinism'

3) 'faith'

 

Tim in Britain
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Maryga
 
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Quote Maryga Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 5:32pm

Dear all, There are a lot of postings here which I haven't had the time to read. I had read Ketchup's post last night and my response is only to his post. Ketchup wrote:

To be a non-believer in my opinion carries greater benefits.

1. You are answerable to no one but your self.

2. There is no heaven or hell, just the good and bad within us all..

3. Freedom of choice. no chains dictate what you have to wear or do, and as a female its great knowing I can control what happens to my body..  We were born naked, a fact that many people seem to forget.

4. Religion is not used as an arguement every time people poke fun.. weak people use thier religion so others take pity.   Shouting the race card every time your pride is hurt just makes people hate more.

To a believer the "freedom" of a non-believer" is limited to this life which may either be brief or a hundred years, but that freedom will end as soon as he dies. Whereas the believer's freedom is restricted in this world by his Faith in God and in obedience to God's commands. These restrictions are again limited to only this life and his freedom in the next life God willing will be endless.

053.028:But they have no knowledge therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth

053.029:Therefore turn aside from him who turns his back upon Our reminder and does not desire anything but this world's life.

053.030:That is as far as knowledge will reach them. Verily thy Lord knoweth best.

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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 5:33pm

I simply said:

 "As I understand things, (I don't know physics) everything without exception is matter which is in a constant state of movement and change. Change is not an element of matter, it is its essence.  Movement and change accuse as conflict, or as the Greek philosophers said, 'Dialectically'. So, with 'dialectics' and 'matter' we have what has been called 'Dialectical Materialism', if you want to research this. Please do not jump to final conclsions and start looking for 'labels' just yet!

This 'world view' has no place for spirits of the river, forest or rocks. No animal spirits or gods. No super human, half-god half-man creatures and no 'One God'.  It is believed that each of these ideas of god was man's (all men and women) attempt to understand the world and their place in it. And that each corresponds or reflects a particular economic and historical period in ourhuman history, hunting,farming and city dwelling for example." There has been no clear response to this yet. Everyone here with brains is sensitive to the stereotyping and scapegoating of Muslims by the 'state', wherever you live,  BUT, whether you like it or not we and our children have a common future.  It is our job to talk with real integrity, not defensive impatience and dismissive contempt.

P.s Are you serious about dialog, argument, struggle, contradiction and 'trial'? Or are you only interested in self?

 



Edited by Tim Evans
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Maryga
 
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Quote Maryga Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 5:36pm

Here is something really beautiful from Imam Ghazali which I have received:

Life is nothing but an accumulation of many breaths. So every breath is just a precious diamond which cannot be purchased with anything in the world. It is a priceless jewel which has got no substitute in value. So in movements and talks, and in sorrows and happiness, such a priceless breath should not be spent in vain. To destroy it is to court destruction. An intelligent man cannot lose it.
 
When a man gets up at dawn, he should enter into an agreement with himself just as a tradesman contracts with his partner. At that time, he should address his mind thus: O mind, you have been given no other property as precious as life. When it will end, the principal will end and despondency will come in seeking profit in business.


Today is a new day. Allah has given you time, that is, He has delayed your death. He has bestowed upon you innumerable gifts. Think that you are already dead. So don't waste time.
 
Every breath is a precious jewel.


Man has got for each day and night twenty-four treasure houses in twenty-four hours. Fill up these then find them filled up with divine sights in the world next. If they are not filled up with good works, they will be filled up with intense darkness wherefrom a bad stench will come out and envelop them all around. Another treasure house will neither give him happiness nor sorrow. That is an hour in which he slept, or was careless, or was engaged in any lawful work of this world. He will feel grieved for its remaining vacant.
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