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Islam for non-Muslims
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awesomeJ
 
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Quote awesomeJ Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2006 at 8:14pm
Assalamualaikum
lets clear my previous post out..

not predetermined and may be predetermined = our action.
this is supported by Qur'an in 008.053 (Sura Al-Anfal [Spoils of War, Booty])

"ٌBecause Allah will never change the grace which He hath bestowed on a people until they change what is in their (own) souls: and verily Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things)."

no change = no gain!

predetermined = sunnatullah, (the law of universe which we though as science. Not just physic,biology and chemistry but also social science, psycology etc..)

As a part of universe. actually we walk in this path, the path of sunnatullah. Taking quote from the matrix.. "walking the path is different from knowing the path - Morpheus"
Once I've been thought about the concept of Qada` and Qadar..
which qada` that may be pronounce as taqdir is predetermined thing and qadar is a proportion or rate for qada`. (this Islamic idea sounds mathematic to me!)

About the 'suffering' mention in Qur'an

Let see our world and ourselves today... do you think it full of suffering? The quran teach you about suffering so we can READY to face the challenge.. Insya Allah.. by Allah wills we are not feel too burdened by the test Allah give us..

In other word.. Allah doesn't say life = suffering... but we have to be READY to face it... wallahu alam

@ Tim Evans
Qada` and Qadar is a sixth element of our pillars of Iman which to be a true muslim.. we must beleive  and  hold this pillars ..  (dont confuse  it with pillars of  Islam).
Anyway I suggest you to search or googling around about literature review  on Qada` and Qadar to clear things out.. I'm looking forward to read your comment on this subject soon..

@ Forumers...
I expect to see a calm, harmony and healthy discussion in this forum. So please dont use harsh word among ourselves..

 


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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2006 at 11:45pm
My belief (and John Wesley's) is that anyone can create good works, but
without a spiritual focus in life these cannot accrue spiritual benefits. The
sociobiology of many species demonstrate altruism for example.

Good works, by and of themselves, do not move one closer to God.
David C.
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Quote Ketchup Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 2:43am

Why should it matter if people believe or disbelieve?  Choice and free will is what seperates us from the rest of the food chain....

Think about it....

Muslims are suffering persectution because the world refuses to change to fit in with thier beliefs.. this has been going on for thousands of years.. thats choice.. in those thuosands of years they still follow the good book as it was written with no apparent deviation, something that is hard to mix with the western world.   Get your heads around that.

To be a non-believer in my opinion carries greater benefits.

1. You are answerable to no one but your self.

2. There is no heaven or hell, just the good and bad within us all..

3. Freedom of choice. no chains dictate what you have to wear or do, and as a female its great knowing I can control what happens to my body..  We were born naked, a fact that many people seem to forget.

4. Religion is not used as an arguement every time people poke fun.. weak people use thier religion so others take pity.   Shouting the race card every time your pride is hurt just makes people hate more.

the list is endless....  To have no belief means to have freedom.... a freedom to live the one life we have been given to its fullest.. it doesnt make people immoral.  As i have said before.. good people do good things bad prople dp bad things, only good people do bad things in the name of religion.

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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 4:14am

Hello,

OK, so it looks if some of us 'Amad Jayia', 'awesom' and 'DavidC', among others are moving toards a position where the, inevitable labels, will be less of a promlem in our discussion.

I have attempted previously to find an agreed starting point for a discussion and, hoping for your agreement, I have posted that piece again below, in order to clarify matters.

"The Question seems to be this:

People who have a 'faith' tend to believe that the world and their lives, and other peoples lives, are 'determined' by whatever God or force that they believe in. However, allow they believe that God determines everything they also believe that God has given humans 'free will' which can act against what is already 'determined'. ANY OBJECTIONS SO FAR?

People who don't have 'faith' in a God may also believe that things are 'determined', but not by a God. Some of these people believe that every single thing that happens (including all human actions and thoughts) are already 'determined' by what happened before, (fate or destiny if you like) so they have no 'free will', they say. And some say no there is no God, general 'determinism' is true and 'free will' is also true. IF YOU ARE STILL AWAKE, IS THIS ANY CLEARER.

So, here are at least three different ways of thinking and talking about things. Is it any wonder that there is such confusion in discussions? All insist that their view is correct. Should we set out to prove the question either way, or just leave it for everyone to continue with their 'faith' whether it is true or not?"

Can I also suggest (for the sake of clarity) that we either tackle 'faith' or 'free will and determinism' seperatly, at least to begin with.   I don't mind which it is. If that can't be done, thats OK, we can just carry on and see what happens.

First

As I understand things, (I don't know physics) everything without exception is matter which is in a constant state of movement and change. Change is not an element of matter, it is its essence.  Movement and change accuse as conflict, or as the Greek philosophers said, 'Dialectically'. So, with 'dialectics' and 'matter' we have what has been called 'Dialectical Materialism', if you want to research this. Please do not jump to final conclsions and start looking for 'labels' just yet!

This 'world view' has no place for spirits of the river, forest or rocks. No animal spirits or gods. No super human, half-god half-man creatures and no 'One God'.  It is believed that each of these ideas of god was man's (all men and women) attempt to understand the world and their place in it. And that each corresponds or reflects a particular economic and historical period in our history, hunting, farming and city dwelling for example.

That should be enough to start with.  I hope it is not offensive to any readers, that is not the intention. However, I can't see how such a discussion can be had, without contradicting deeply held 'faith'.

Best wishes

 

 

 

Tim in Britain
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 8:18am

Thanks bro Tim for your response. Let us see what have I argued and what is little more rationalistic in thinking as what you have suggested in reply to my "wondering".

Originally posted by Tim

The quick straight answer to your wondering is this

"People without faith in God", generally believe that humans developed morality to fit their social, family or personal circumstances and that God or Gods are a creation of man, not the other way around.

Well this is simply a faith based statement (by people without faith in God) without formal basis to it. So without arguing its content I shall proceed with the rest of the reply.

Originally posted by Tim

I can appreciate that this is unthinkable to people who have a "faith" .....
Yap, you are very right. How can we prove it other than faith of people without faith?

Originally posted by Tim

.......but let me put this question.

Would people with "faith" have no 'morality' if morality was not commanded by their "faith"? I don't believe they would.

Is anyone saying that people without "faith" in God are immoral?  I can assure you they are not.

Now coming to this question, it is quite simple to answer where it is realized that the very basis of morality is against the very instinct of human nature or one can call it the option for a 'free will'. It is then the people of faith, brought in the idea of morality (through some transcedental transform) into the savage societal patterns of primal human living. So for your answer, if people 'without faith' have any morality, it is basically through their centuries old human interactions with the people 'with faith', only. If we, somehow, remove this interaction between the two for some sufficiently long period of time, the humans shall no more be different than his ancestral homo-sapeion as far as morality is concerned. Some glimpsis of this are duly evident in the west where "Naturalists" are trying to go back to their ancestral livings.

Originally posted by Tim

A "cheat" is someone who breaks and agreed code to secure an advantage,
Dear bro thanks for your definition but the question is who says this is bad or good? If anyone try to bring in the logic of evolution, fine with me; but then he has to make me understand as why this evolution of morality remained only for homo-sapeians and why not for other speices existing far earlier than them with far larger brain size?

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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 9:42am

Dear Sis (I hope I am not wrong in this title), just to focus you with what my point is on this thread, I would like to respond to your comments.

Originally posted by Ketchup

Muslims are suffering persectution because the world refuses to change to fit in with thier beliefs.. this has been going on for thousands of years.. thats choice.. in those thuosands of years they still follow the good book as it was written with no apparent deviation, something that is hard to mix with the western world.

 Here your comparison of one "religion" with the "world" is not symmetric. Its hard to imagine that whole "western world" is without faith. Do you need examples??  

Originally posted by ketchup

To be a non-believer in my opinion carries greater benefits.
Yap, you are right only if you view it as a "benefit" from a selfish humanistic perspective of this 'world's life'. But not other wise. Let us see, how: "1. You are answerable to no one but your self." Yap! that is great for you. So as long as there is no one else (any human) to see you, you are at liberty to do any thing. This is strange benefit. People with faith always carry an accountablity to God, wherever he goes; seen by other humans or not. So inherantly, people with faith are more responsible for their actions.

"2. There is no heaven or hell, just the good and bad within us all.." What benefit are you refering here, I don't get it? People of faith have yet another life to consider for all their actions, a life after death, more fuller than this.

"3. Freedom of choice. no chains dictate what you have to wear or do, and as a female its great knowing I can control what happens to my body..  We were born naked, a fact that many people seem to forget." Now if you call ignorance, a benefit, its upto you. Born as a naked doesn't mean to remain naked for the rest of life. Ah! from where shall "morality" be known to mankind if not from "faith"?

"4. Religion is not used as an arguement every time people poke fun.. weak people use thier religion so others take pity.   Shouting the race card every time your pride is hurt just makes people hate more." Yes relegion has been exploited by the many, yet we know that its only the faith that brings morality to humans; a quality differentiating him from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Originally posted by ketchup

 the list is endless....  To have no belief means to have freedom.... a freedom to live the one life we have been given to its fullest.. it doesnt make people immoral.  As i have said before.. good people do good things bad prople dp bad things, only good people do bad things in the name of religion.
So, you tend to say that "good" people are born good and "bad" people are born bad? I am amazed with this thinking. Nevertheless, the most important of all is the question as what is "immoral" and how can you define it, without the aid of faith? 



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Ketchup
 
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Quote Ketchup Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 11:44am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Dear Sis (I hope I am not wrong in this title), just to focus you with what my point is on this thread, I would like to respond to your comments.

You are correct with your assumption.

[/quote]

Originally posted by Ketchup

Muslims are suffering persectution because the world refuses to change to fit in with thier beliefs.. this has been going on for thousands of years.. thats choice.. in those thuosands of years they still follow the good book as it was written with no apparent deviation, something that is hard to mix with the western world.

 Here your comparison of one "religion" with the "world" is not symmetric. Its hard to imagine that whole "western world" is without faith. Do you need examples??[/quote]

People need something to believe in, I wouldn't dream of saying the west is faithless.. I wasn't even implying that.  What puzzles me is were do we westerners fit in with the Islam ideal.  I know that muslims are very strict over thier faith and follow the good book with great conviction.. the problem seems to be the modern western way of life goes against its teachings.. can we fit in?

Originally posted by ketchup

To be a non-believer in my opinion carries greater benefits.
Yap, you are right only if you view it as a "benefit" from a selfish humanistic perspective of this 'world's life'. But not other wise. Let us see, how: "1. You are answerable to no one but your self." Yap! that is great for you. So as long as there is no one else (any human) to see you, you are at liberty to do any thing. This is strange benefit. People with faith always carry an accountablity to God, wherever he goes; seen by other humans or not. So inherantly, people with faith are more responsible for their actions.

For me I don't think it really makes any difference.. I still have a good sense of what is right and wrong.  What I don't have is a sense of guilt which seems to be carried by people of many faiths.. i also accept responsibility for my own actions.

"2. There is no heaven or hell, just the good and bad within us all.." What benefit are you refering here, I don't get it? People of faith have yet another life to consider for all their actions, a life after death, more fuller than this.

This is were we have to disagree.. I don't believe in life after death and that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

"3. Freedom of choice. no chains dictate what you have to wear or do, and as a female its great knowing I can control what happens to my body..  We were born naked, a fact that many people seem to forget." Now if you call ignorance, a benefit, its upto you. Born as a naked doesn't mean to remain naked for the rest of life. Ah! from where shall "morality" be known to mankind if not from "faith"?

If its hot in summer there is no way I would be covered from head to toe with black clothe..

"4. Religion is not used as an arguement every time people poke fun.. weak people use thier religion so others take pity.   Shouting the race card every time your pride is hurt just makes people hate more." Yes relegion has been exploited by the many, yet we know that its only the faith that brings morality to humans; a quality differentiating him from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Can't argue with that...

Originally posted by ketchup

 the list is endless....  To have no belief means to have freedom.... a freedom to live the one life we have been given to its fullest.. it doesnt make people immoral.  As i have said before.. good people do good things bad prople dp bad things, only good people do bad things in the name of religion.
So, you tend to say that "good" people are born good and "bad" people are born bad? I am amazed with this thinking. Nevertheless, the most important of all is the question as what is "immoral" and how can you define it, without the aid of faith? 

Hell no!  Nurture versus nature and all that.  I didn't say people are born good or bad, social upbringing plays a big factor in this.

What is immoral?  Everyone has values... I will not kill, steal, commit adultery etc I respect my elders and the world around me. 

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Shams Zaman
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Quote Shams Zaman Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2006 at 11:47am

Dear Tim !

You said:

P.s Why should the Pope in Rome, the rulers Saudi Arabia, or the great Gurus of India live in fabulous wealth and tell the poor to suffer as a "test."  Your faith enables you to accept this. I have no such faith and cannot accept this as just. 

This is not what the faith tells that let everyone suffers who is living in poverty. There is a complete system of charity and wealth sharing in Islam. Why there is so much poverty? Because we don't follow the system. Yet if we follow there would be some who will be tested by different things. A wealthy man is also tested for his wealth:

2:264, “O you who believe! do not make your charity worthless by reproach and being harsh (in asking for return), like him who spends his property just to be seen by other people and does not believe in Allah and the last day; so his parable is as the parable of a smooth rock with earth upon it, then a heavy rain falls upon it, so it leaves it bare (washing away all his good deeds); they shall not be able to gain anything of what they have earned; and Allah does not guide the unbelieving people. 267. O you who believe! spend (benevolently) of the good things that you earn and or what We have brought forth for you out of the earth, and do not aim at disposing off the bad things in charity, of which you would not take it yourselves except with disdain, and know that Allah is Self-sufficient, Praiseworthy.

268. Shaitan (devil) threatens you with poverty and enjoins you to be miser, and Allah promises you forgiveness and His blessings in abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing”.

Chapter-104, “1. Woe to every slanderer, defamer, 2. Who amasses his wealth and then keep it counting (with an aim to increasing it); 3. He thinks that his wealth will make him immortal. 4. Nay! he shall most certainly be hurled into the crushing disaster, 5. And what will make you realize what the crushing disaster is? 6. It is the fire kindled by Allah, 7. Which leaps over above the hearts....

 

Brother, this life is not an end in itself but provides us with means to achieve an end. That end of which has no limits, where there will be no misery or pain so if you still thank Allah even in misery then you pass the test, as said in, 3:186 “You shall certainly be tested respecting your wealth/property and your lives, and you shall certainly hear from those who have been given the Book before you and from those who are polytheists very painful and annoying things; and if you remain patient and guard (against evil), surely these are among most steadfast affairs”.

2:155. “And We will most certainly try you with fear(of enemy) and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits/crops; and give good news to those who remain patient”. 

Do you think that you would enter the heaven while the state of those who passed away before you has not yet come upon you; distress and affliction befell on them and they were shaken violently....” (2:214)

So even if still you have been the victim of the By Chance theory what would your answers to the follow questions:

(1)                       Who are we and where do we come from?

(2)                       Where do we go after death?

(3)                       What is all this around us? Millions and millions of Galaxies, stars and planets. Who has organised them in such a manner? Who is the creator of all these trillions and trillions of countless atoms which has such a complex system that we still don’t understand yet?

(4)                       Is all this creation just BY CHANCE?

So the logical conclusion is that if a Boeing 747, or the space shuttle, or the super computer can’t be created just from no where how come such a complex system of universe and human was created BY CHANCE? We cannot point out even a single thing in the known human history which was created BY CHANCE except for this universe.

 

A few days ago the famous and leading world Cosmologist Sir Roger Penrose (who is very close associate of Stephen Hawking) while talking in the BBC’s Hard Talk responded to a question in similar way.

Once he was asked that, can we create Human Robots or Human Machines in the laboratories?     He straight away responded in NO (meaning a robot in relation to physics and not a genetic model). He said that there is a missing ingredient which is yet not explainable or conceivable but it certainly is not present in machines and is unique to Humans, may be conscious or my be emotions.

So once asked that do you believe that this is the creation of GOD, although he said I won’t specifically say that in context of some religion but I do think that this unknown creation or ingredient is too complex to be termed as self-created. May be there is some intelligent force about which we do not know yet.

Mr. Penrose was certainly talking about the “SPIRIT” or the “SOUL” known as “ROOH” in Arabic. The Quran says about this in 17:85, “And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is of the commands of my Lord, and you have not been given knowledge but a little”.

 

Here it is not said that you now don’t understand the nature of the soul, but it is said that this knowledge (the knowledge of Amar-ul-Allah, or God’s orderly world is beyond the human perception).  Human understanding is limited to the Physical and a portion of metaphysical world.

Shams Zaman  

smszmn72@yahoo.cm
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