IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Free Will

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Maryga

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Joined: 10 July 2005
Location: Australia
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Posts: 143

Posted: 13 February 2006 at 3:53am

People who have a 'faith' tend to believe that the world and their lives, and other peoples lives, are 'determined' by whatever God or force that they believe in. However, allow they believe that God determines everything they also believe that God has given humans 'free will' which can act against what is already 'determined'. ANY OBJECTIONS SO FAR?

YES. I am a believer in God. And I believe that God answers those who sincerely call upon Him and even what is "determined" can be changed. That limited free will gives us the opportunity to acknowledge Him, obey His Commands and know that He answers the prayers of every sincere suppliant. If we were to believe that everything is determined where is the need to pray or do anything good?

To simply believe that everything is "determined" is fatalistic.

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awesomeJ

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Joined: 01 February 2006
Location: Malaysia
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Posts: 7

Posted: 13 February 2006 at 4:26am

I suggest someone post a note on Qada` and Qadar concept here please?? And there two types of qada' isn't it?

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DavidC

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Joined: 20 September 2001
Location: United States
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Posts: 2211

Posted: 13 February 2006 at 6:03am

Something I learned here several years ago is that God knows the
outcome of events, but he also sees into our hearts and intentions.

Our intentions are influenced by free will, and also by our spiritual
condition.

I believe this existence is a 'training mission' for our eternal life. If life
was a video game, believers would be working hard to gain skill points
and inventory. We know we will experience 'game over', but we try our
best.

Non-believers are more concerned with finding cheat codes and hacks
where all the players show up naked.

As was posted earlier, this choice of belief/non-belief is the crux of free
will.

Edited by DavidC

David C.

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ak_m_f

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Joined: 15 October 2005
Location: Canada
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Posts: 3274

Posted: 13 February 2006 at 6:46am

Originally posted by awesomeJ

Assalam-alaikum

I'm newbie here..but when I watch movie - The MatrixI start to beleive (in my own interpretation),that we live in a world which is govern by law of nature which i would like to repronounce as 'sunnatullah' - law that Allah have stated even before the creation of universe, that govern all living or non-living thing. If you understand how the comp. programs work, like the computer program in the matrix movies, the program itself has the path or mathematical formula that 'predetermined' for the program to run.. and as a human, as a part of universe, we can have several choices to enter the input of the program and the output will produce result, consequences, outcome etc based on the 'sunnatullah, or mathematical, law , rules or whatever you want to call it. In other words.. we have the freedom to choose our action (our action may not be predetermined).. but for sure wo don't have freedom to choose our outcome..choices --> process by sunnatullah --> outcome

wallahu a'lam

AFter watching last 3 matrix movies:

following questions came to my mind:

What if we are not living in the real world? and matrix is the real world? how do we know that we are not awake?

waht if we are comtrolled by computer known as "God'?

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Tim Evans

Senior Member

Joined: 31 January 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 273

Posted: 13 February 2006 at 10:16am

DavidC,

"Non-believers are more concerned with finding cheat codes and hacks
where all the players show up naked."

I say old chap, this is a bit harsh, and wrong. Contrary to your outright accusation of me being a "cheat" etc, I can tell you that there is no dishonesty or advantage in being a "Non-believer" as you say. One reason for this is because we have to put up with rude remarks and worse, from escapists who compare life with a "video game". That is: people who can only respond to life as a compilation of dramatic sounds and images that they bought, or swapped with someone else. Extraordinary!

As was posted earlier, this choice of belief/non-belief is the crux of free
will. "

Please tell us more, how is it the "crux"?

Edited by Tim Evans

Tim in Britain

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Tim Evans

Senior Member

Joined: 31 January 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 273

Posted: 13 February 2006 at 10:29am

ak,

Trust me friend, lay off the matrix!

Tim in Britain

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AhmadJoyia

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Joined: 20 March 2005
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1161

Posted: 13 February 2006 at 12:40pm

Sometimes, I wonder, how people without faith in God, define as what is "cheat" and why it offends them? For that matter, how even they define "morality" (e.g. honesty or selflessness etc.) other than from experiences gained through human history; a human history which itself is not independant of faithfull people. Specifically speaking, why do they feel dishonesty and selfishness is bad and therefore wrong? Are these not the typical doctrinal realms of all faith in God based religions? Strange indeed!!

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Tim Evans

Senior Member

Joined: 31 January 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 273

Posted: 13 February 2006 at 2:32pm

Ahmad,

The quick straight answer to your wondering is this

"People without faith in God", generally believe that humans developed morality to fit their social, family or personal circumstances and that God or Gods are a creation of man, not the other way around.

I can appreciate that this is unthinkable to people who have a "faith" but let me put this question.

Would people with "faith" have no 'morality' if morality was not commanded by their "faith"? I don't believe they would.

Is anyone saying that people without "faith" in God are immoral? I can assure you they are not.

A "cheat" is someone who breaks and agreed code to secure an advantage,

Edited by Tim Evans

Tim in Britain

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Author	Message
Maryga Senior Member Joined: 10 July 2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 143	Posted: 13 February 2006 at 3:53am
	People who have a 'faith' tend to believe that the world and their lives, and other peoples lives, are 'determined' by whatever God or force that they believe in. However, allow they believe that God determines everything they also believe that God has given humans 'free will' which can act against what is already 'determined'. ANY OBJECTIONS SO FAR? YES. I am a believer in God. And I believe that God answers those who sincerely call upon Him and even what is "determined" can be changed. That limited free will gives us the opportunity to acknowledge Him, obey His Commands and know that He answers the prayers of every sincere suppliant. If we were to believe that everything is determined where is the need to pray or do anything good? To simply believe that everything is "determined" is fatalistic.
	IP Logged

awesomeJ Newbie Joined: 01 February 2006 Location: Malaysia Online Status: Offline Posts: 7	Posted: 13 February 2006 at 4:26am
	I suggest someone post a note on Qada` and Qadar concept here please?? And there two types of qada' isn't it?
	IP Logged

DavidC Senior Member Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2211	Posted: 13 February 2006 at 6:03am
	Something I learned here several years ago is that God knows the outcome of events, but he also sees into our hearts and intentions. Our intentions are influenced by free will, and also by our spiritual condition. I believe this existence is a 'training mission' for our eternal life. If life was a video game, believers would be working hard to gain skill points and inventory. We know we will experience 'game over', but we try our best. Non-believers are more concerned with finding cheat codes and hacks where all the players show up naked. As was posted earlier, this choice of belief/non-belief is the crux of free will. Edited by DavidC
	David C.
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ak_m_f Senior Member Joined: 15 October 2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 3274	Posted: 13 February 2006 at 6:46am
	*Originally posted by awesomeJ* Assalam-alaikum I'm newbie here..but when I watch movie - The MatrixI start to beleive (in my own interpretation),that we live in a world which is govern by law of nature which i would like to repronounce as 'sunnatullah' - law that Allah have stated even before the creation of universe, that govern all living or non-living thing. If you understand how the comp. programs work, like the computer program in the matrix movies, the program itself has the path or mathematical formula that 'predetermined' for the program to run.. and as a human, as a part of universe, we can have several choices to enter the input of the program and the output will produce result, consequences, outcome etc based on the 'sunnatullah, or mathematical, law , rules or whatever you want to call it. In other words.. we have the freedom to choose our action (our action may not be predetermined).. but for sure wo don't have freedom to choose our outcome..choices --> process by sunnatullah --> outcomewallahu a'lam AFter watching last 3 matrix movies: following questions came to my mind: What if we are not living in the real world? and matrix is the real world? how do we know that we are not awake? waht if we are comtrolled by computer known as "God'?
	IP Logged

Tim Evans Senior Member Joined: 31 January 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 273	Posted: 13 February 2006 at 10:16am
	DavidC, "Non-believers are more concerned with finding cheat codes and hacks where all the players show up naked." I say old chap, this is a bit harsh, and wrong. Contrary to your outright accusation of me being a "cheat" etc, I can tell you that there is no dishonesty or advantage in being a "Non-believer" as you say. One reason for this is because we have to put up with rude remarks and worse, from escapists who compare life with a "video game". That is: people who can only respond to life as a compilation of dramatic sounds and images that they bought, or swapped with someone else. Extraordinary! As was posted earlier, this choice of belief/non-belief is the crux of free will. " Please tell us more, how is it the "crux"? Edited by Tim Evans
	Tim in Britain
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Tim Evans Senior Member Joined: 31 January 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 273	Posted: 13 February 2006 at 10:29am
	ak, Trust me friend, lay off the matrix!
	Tim in Britain
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AhmadJoyia Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 1161	Posted: 13 February 2006 at 12:40pm
	Sometimes, I wonder, how people without faith in God, define as what is "cheat" and why it offends them? For that matter, how even they define "morality" (e.g. honesty or selflessness etc.) other than from experiences gained through human history; a human history which itself is not independant of faithfull people. Specifically speaking, why do they feel dishonesty and selfishness is bad and therefore wrong? Are these not the typical doctrinal realms of all faith in God based religions? Strange indeed!!
	IP Logged

Tim Evans Senior Member Joined: 31 January 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 273	Posted: 13 February 2006 at 2:32pm
	Ahmad, The quick straight answer to your wondering is this "People without faith in God", generally believe that humans developed morality to fit their social, family or personal circumstances and that God or Gods are a creation of man, not the other way around. I can appreciate that this is unthinkable to people who have a "faith" but let me put this question. Would people with "faith" have no 'morality' if morality was not commanded by their "faith"? I don't believe they would. Is anyone saying that people without "faith" in God are immoral? I can assure you they are not. A "cheat" is someone who breaks and agreed code to secure an advantage, Edited by Tim Evans
	Tim in Britain
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Topic: Free Will
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