Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Free Will Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 15 Next >>
Author Message
Tim Evans
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 273
Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 10 February 2006 at 11:17am

Ahmad Joyia, Maryga and Shans Zaman,

Well, I did ask.

Thanks very much for your considerate and fulsome answers?

I can't share your conclusions, but I have learned a great deal about your faith. And I think your answers, essentially that 'determinism' and 'free will' both exist, interact and interchange. I appreciate that you can't accept my interpretation but agreement would require a 'leap of faith' I can't make.

A story about 'Faith'.

A young man once complained to his priest about the poverty, starvation and other cruelties in the world. And said that God would not permit it, therefore there was no God. The priest said that in order to have faith in God the young man must pray. And got the answer, "How can I pray without faith"? 

 

 

Tim in Britain
IP IP Logged
AhmadJoyia
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1161
Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 10 February 2006 at 12:00pm

Oh, did I miss out something here when you say "..I appreciate that you can't accept my interpretation but agreement would require a 'leap of faith' I can't make."

My dear can you elaborate your version of explanation of free will and determinism? I don't see any of your explanation in your post on this thread? So where is the difference and what 'leap of faith' is about? I couldn't get it.

IP IP Logged
Shams Zaman
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 March 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Quote Shams Zaman Replybullet Posted: 10 February 2006 at 12:41pm

Dear Tim!

 

This is a very common question asked as to why is there so much of pain and starvation? Well this is also for a test. If Allah has given someone wealth it is for his test that whether he spends it for the needy and poor or just keeps it to himself. Quran addresses this issue in great detail:

 

2:264, “O you who believe! do not make your charity worthless by reproach and being harsh (in asking for return), like him who spends his property just to be seen by other people and does not believe in Allah and the last day; so his parable is as the parable of a smooth rock with earth upon it, then a heavy rain falls upon it, so it leaves it bare (washing away all his good deeds); they shall not be able to gain anything of what they have earned; and Allah does not guide the unbelieving people.

 

2:267. O you who believe! spend (benevolently) of the good things that you earn and or what We have brought forth for you out of the earth, and do not aim at disposing off the bad things in charity, of which you would not take it yourselves except with disdain, and know that Allah is Self-sufficient, Praiseworthy.

 

2:268. Shaitan (devil) threatens you with poverty and enjoins you to be miser, and Allah promises you forgiveness and His blessings in abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing”.

 

Also in Chapter-104, “1. Woe to every slanderer, defamer, 2. Who amasses his wealth and then keep it counting (with an aim to increasing it); 3. He thinks that his wealth will make him immortal. 4. Nay! he shall most certainly be hurled into the crushing disaster, 5. And what will make you realize what the crushing disaster is? 6. It is the fire kindled by Allah, 7. Which leaps over above the hearts....”

 

Brother, this life is not an end in itself but provides us with means to achieve an end. That end of which has no limits, where there will be no misery or pain so if you still thank Allah even in misery then you pass the test.

 

As said in, 3:186 “You shall certainly be tested respecting your wealth/property and your lives, and you shall certainly hear from those who have been given the Book before you and from those who are polytheists very painful and annoying things; and if you remain patient and guard (against evil), surely these are among most steadfast affairs”.

 

2:155. “And We will most certainly try you with fear(of enemy) and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits/crops; and give good news to those who remain patient”. 

 

“Do you think that you would enter the heaven while the state of those who passed away before you has not yet come upon you; distress and affliction befell on them and they were shaken violently....” (2:214)

 

29:2-3 “Do people think that they will be left away only on saying, We believe, and they will not be tested? 3. And certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly judge who are true (believers) and those who are liars”.

 

Shams Zaman

smszmn72@yahoo.cm
IP IP Logged
Tim Evans
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 273
Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 10 February 2006 at 1:18pm

Ahmad Joyia,

I said, "I can't share your conclusions, but I have learned a great deal about your faith. And I think your answers, essentially that 'determinism' and 'free will' both exist, interact and interchange. I appreciate that you can't accept my interpretation but agreement would require a 'leap of faith' I can't make."

It would have been clearer if it had said "...interpretation of your answers (determinism and free will both exist etc) but agreement would require a 'leap of faith' I can't make."  

Is that clearer?

 

Tim in Britain
IP IP Logged
Tim Evans
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 273
Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 10 February 2006 at 1:22pm

29:2-3 “Do people think that they will be left away only on saying, We believe, and they will not be tested? 3. And certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly judge who are true (believers) and those who are liars”.

 

Shams Zaman

 

That is the point of the 'story', but told by a man.

Tim in Britain
IP IP Logged
Shams Zaman
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 March 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Quote Shams Zaman Replybullet Posted: 10 February 2006 at 11:28pm

Brother !

This was not told by a man. These are the verses 2-3 of Quran from Chapter 29 (sura 29) revaeled to Prophet Muhammad who spelled them to us. What Prophet said otherwise is known as the Hadith or the sayings of the Prophet. However Quran is the revelations of God and not spoken of by Prophet Muhammad at his free will.

Shams Zaman

smszmn72@yahoo.cm
IP IP Logged
Tim Evans
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 273
Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 11 February 2006 at 2:47am

Dear Zaman,

Thanks

What I am saying is: That the 'story' I told, was told by a man. I was making the point that if a person has no faith in God they can not  pray or be expected to pray as they are requested or instructed, because they do not have faith. Some may pray just for show, or because they want to fit in with the community. 

My 'story' made a similar point to the verses 2-3 of Quran from Chapter 29 (sura 29) that you quoted. But my 'story' was "told by a man" - me!

I hope I have made myself clear.

Best wishers

P.s Why should the Pope in Rome, the rulers Saudi Arabia, or the great Gurus of India live in fabulous wealth and tell the poor to suffer as a "test."  Your faith enables you to accept this. I have no such faith and cannot accept this as just. 



Edited by Tim Evans
Tim in Britain
IP IP Logged
herjihad
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 January 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2473
Quote herjihad Replybullet Posted: 11 February 2006 at 7:10am

Bismillah,

The leaders of the world who do not care for their followers will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment.  Muslims are not encouraged to accept these conditions on earth.  We are enjoined by Allah to fight against oppression. 

 The patience and inner strength we are encouraged to have is personal, but when corrupt leaders rule the world, we must rebel and overthrow them using whatever means we have available that are allowed by Allah.

The point of the postings from the Holy Quran about giving in charity is that we are all accountable for our wealth and that we must give to the poor, for that is the only reason we have money, to please Allah, SWT, the Most High and Glorious, by giving to others who don't have it.

And there is absolutely no shame in accepting the charity.  If we are instructed to give it, that also means that poor people are obligated by Allah to take the charity with good will and patience.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 15 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com