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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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herjihad
 
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Quote herjihad Replybullet Posted: 18 February 2006 at 8:38pm

Bismillah,

My final paragraph?  Yes, faith is a door and once you enter it, it encircles your life.  Stand outside if you want.  that's up to you, sort of.  Cause then 'we're at that free will discussion again.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 19 February 2006 at 7:03am

herjihad

Very well said!

Tim in Britain
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 19 February 2006 at 7:30am

"Anger/no anger" is just a behavior as how feelings are conveyed, "fact/no fact" is immaterial.

 If at all subject was changed, it was changed long before my "wondering" question, though I did caution, then and there, not to deviate from the topic. Dispite all this, I still think, evolution of later discussion, did not get far away from the main theme. 

The whole discussion till page 3 went into circles, from one direction or the other. There was hardly any new point came forward to add any thing new, but the repetitions of the old. Just to come out of  "going round in circles", the question of "morality" in "free will" was introduced to look at the same question, but yet from another angle. Is there any voilation of the forum rules? I don't think so, especially people on this forum did show their interest to continue with that discussion. Later, all of a sudden, with reasons beyond comprehension of the people on the forum, the discussion turned into attempting opinions over individuals than the topic. Now this is what I call it "lame excuses", just to remain polite.

Now coming to the "final paragraph", I realize that my "wonder" about any logical link of "morality" with "no faith" is still unanswered. At least uptill now in the present discussions. At time, "consciousness"[1], has been suggested, without realising that it is simply a state of mind to "pick and choose" from the available options, irrespective, if it is instinctively based or otherwise. Hence, this is yet to be seen that how it this "consciousness" is independant of "faith" and not "instinctive" based, a quality through which even animals also make their decisions. On the other hand "moral" is to directly related to ethics, a process of consciously making good or bad [2] decisions. Kindly note that even in this definition, the highlighted words "good or bad" are implicitly understood as defined outside the process of consciousness. It is yet to see that "standard" through which this conscious decision can be made in favor of "good" and not the "bad", distinctively different than animals, can be achieved without faith.

[1]. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=consciousness

1. Main Entry: con·scious·ness
Pronunciation: -n&s
Function: noun
1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c : AWARENESS; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : MIND
3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual
4 : the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes

[2].http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/moral

Main Entry: 1mor·al
Pronunciation: 'mor-&l, 'mär-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom
1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent> 



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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 19 February 2006 at 9:05am
My consciousness is independent of faith.  However, faith may or may not be a part of consciousness.
Tim in Britain
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