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Islam for non-Muslims
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Maryga
 
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Quote Maryga Replybullet Posted: 15 February 2006 at 8:23pm

Bro Ahmad Joyia, I admire your patience.

018.056:We only send the messengers to give Glad Tidings and to give warnings: But the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat My Signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned!

018.057:And who doth more wrong than one who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord, but turns away from them, forgetting the (deeds) which his hands have sent forth? Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance.

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Ketchup
 
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Quote Ketchup Replybullet Posted: 15 February 2006 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Maryga

Bro Ahmad Joyia, I admire your patience.

018.056:We only send the messengers to give Glad Tidings and to give warnings: But the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat My Signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned!

018.057:And who doth more wrong than one who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord, but turns away from them, forgetting the (deeds) which his hands have sent forth? Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance.

Why?  All I see is someone who, no matter what is said can only believe all non believers morals are still born from religion.  Pure folly.. the notion that man can be good without a god should be considered.

p.s i meant to hot edit but hit reply instead.  Was to lazy to edit.



Edited by Ketchup
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 15 February 2006 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by Ketchup

 the notion that man can be good without a god should be considered.

I'd say

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 16 February 2006 at 2:32am

"Moreso, we know that obeidence to our Creator has given us to stand on the higher grounds of Morality than those who don't." That is what you believe. You offer no evidence, a) that you have a creator, b) that you stand on higher grounds of morality BECAUSE if you had proof there would be no 'test'. As you believe that a supernatural god set the test that substitutes for proof, you end up going round in circles. This is your 'faith' which I have not desire to take from you, but it is a faith that denies the primacy of matter and humans in human affairs. You are the "non-believer" in the human capacity to develop, change, and improve 'morality'.

Tim in Britain
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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 16 February 2006 at 3:25am
Originally posted by Ketchup

[QUOTE=Maryga]

Bro Ahmad Joyia, I admire your patience.

018.056:We only send the messengers to give Glad Tidings and to give warnings: But the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat My Signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned!

018.057:And who doth more wrong than one who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord, but turns away from them, forgetting the (deeds) which his hands have sent forth? Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance.

You do not believe that the above texts (which you have put forward as part of this discussion) are the works of men. I wonder, what must it be like for someone who doesn't believe that man's development is as a result of his emergence from the rest of nature and his conflict,  ('work') with nature, including his co-operative social struggle which created all 'moral' understandings, rational and irrational, true and false understandings.  

It seems strange to me not to believe that human destiny is in the hands of humans. It seems to me that non-believers are unable to take full responsibility for the development of morality.



Edited by Tim Evans
Tim in Britain
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 16 February 2006 at 7:32am

Originally posted by Angel

SO you think you have more of a right to say what morals are ? because you believe in (a) God and have (a) religion ?
Nop! I didn't say that. Sis its not an issue of who has a right or no right. I only argued that, though may not be the customs/culture, but atleast, morality is one thing that can't evolve in vacuum, void of faith. Mind it, I have not categorized as what faith is, true or not true. (Its totally a different subject to argue as what faith is true and what is not). It simply implies, arguing theorectically, that in the natural discourses of social development in homo-sapiens, faith in some divine being must be the first step and then subsequently, development of morality, that too based upon that faith, must have taken place. Otherwise, its hard to imagine, why only among species of homo-sapiens that development of morality took place without the fear of rivaling members of the same species. One can call it a fear of a supernatural, may be a superstition as people may call it, but the point remains, that it was exactly this force, which factored in for the development of morality among humans.

Originally posted by ketchup

the notion that man can be good without a god should be considered.
Ok. Very fine. Then please put forward your logical arguments and shall look into it. But mere emotional appeal for supereme human ego, can never be considered a legitimate way of looking at the picture. Isn't it? Please note that its Islam (don't know about others), which presents the concept of superiority of humans over all other creatures, simply because of the 'free will' i.e. to think logically and rationally. Is there any relegion (since I don't know), which appeals to the rationality of humans to under stand faith? I think, that is unique.

Originally posted by Tim

"Moreso, we know that obeidence to our Creator has given us to stand on the higher grounds of Morality than those who don't." That is what you believe. You offer no evidence, a) that you have a creator, b) that you stand on higher grounds of morality BECAUSE if you had proof there would be no 'test'. As you believe that a supernatural god set the test that substitutes for proof, you end up going round in circles. This is your 'faith' which I have not desire to take from you, but it is a faith that denies the primacy of matter and humans in human affairs. You are the "non-believer" in the human capacity to develop, change, and improve 'morality'.

Now this is strange. I have presented you the logical arguments as how I believe as what I believe. Instead of refuting those arguments logically, I have been labled as "going round in circles". The proof for God, I admitted, can't be presented and but given a logical explanation of it from the overall perspective of faith that I believe in. On the same note, I did ask you to present the evidence of "no God". In the absence of such a proof, that I know as well, I am yet to hear any arguement from you to logically connect with over all concepts of what you believe. Secondly, I have given logical arguments of what I believe as how faith and morality are logically connected with each other. If you have anything to differ or any other view, kindly put forward and we all shall discuss it rationally.

In the end, I failed to understand as when did I ever say that morality can't be improved. On the contrary, I have been giving you the examples from since the era of homo-Sapiens the development of morality among humans. However, its hard to imagine as what tools do you provide, without the aid of faith, to improve upon the "morality"?

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Ketchup
 
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Quote Ketchup Replybullet Posted: 16 February 2006 at 7:46am

This all goes back to belief...

I can't prove God doesnt exist, you can't prove God does exist.. so by that very token it is impossible to say that we can only have morals because of faith.  What does exist is the fact that man is essentially good.  Mothers look after thier children out of love, thats instinct, logic and emotion..

As I have said before, one of us is right, and one of us is wrong or we could both be wrong... this is an unanswerable question, all there can be is belief and disbelief.

It's one big circle.



Edited by Ketchup
"The days followed one another patiently. Right back at the beginning of the multiverse they had tried all passing at the same time, and it hadn't worked."
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 16 February 2006 at 7:58am
Thanks sis ketchup. No hard feelings. I guess, I have provided what all can be said from my side. Let the readers of this forum make up their own mind. Similarly, its upto you, your own human intellect to understand. No compulsion in faith. BTW, in the absence of evidence, I can safely call "no faith" as also a faith. Am I wrong? Best wishes for every one on this thread. Peace.
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