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Message Icon Topic: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins. Post Reply Post New Topic
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2006 at 9:10am

Annie,

Did you read my post that I wrote on Paul making the Offering. I wrote it this morning but I have forgotten where I posted that.

Please read ACTS 21:1-26 and specially 21:26 and you will realise that Paul did sacrifise and made the animal Offering, as recommended by the Elders and James of the Jerusalem Church, even though Jesus was long gone.

It means the Elders in the Jerusalem Church were going on with the Law and Sacrifices or Offerings were ordered by them, otherwise why would have they sent Paul with the four men to purify and make the Offerings?

What do you think? I think the Law stands. You still have to carry out Animal sacrifice, Annie!

 



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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2006 at 9:41am
Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Originally posted by Andalus

But Christians are unable to live a good life according to the laws of Gd, so they believe Gd was birthed through his mother to enter this world so He could die and "fulfill" the law, that way they could live according to the laws of man. So although Christians are responsible for sin, they are incapable of doing what is right and need Jesus as a sacrifice to serve as a "sin sacrifice" fo all future sins that have yet to be committed.

Who is capable of obeying God perfectly?  No one.

According to Moses, we all are. And according to the book of Job, Job was.

 

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Christians have to make up their own laws, mad made laws, because Gd's laws are irrelevant.  

Try living up to the commands of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.  These are my guidelines.

Jesus did not give commands. The commands are found in the Torah. Moses state that you are capable of doing them. Do you trust Moses or your preacher at sunday school?

Originally posted by Annie2

 

Originally posted by Andalus

So, yes Christians are responsible for sin, but they are incapable of follwing Gd's commands and require a "super sacrifice".

Who is capable of obeying God's commands perfectly?

Job. And all of us as this is what Moses stated. Was Moses lying?

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

This verse does not saying anything about atoning for every sin within the same context as your belief that Jesus was a super "divine" sacrifice for sins including getting high, adultery, etc. Isaiah 53:12 does not state, or imply, that the suffering servant will be able to bear "sin", as in a "sin blood atonement" for crack heads or prostitutes. 

I beg your pardon?

The verse you quoted does not refer to someone dying for every sin in terms of "expiating" the sin. Sins such as getting high and adultery are between the sinner and Gd.

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:


The penalty for sins was death.  God setup the sacrificial system as atonement for sins.  Repentance, prayer and sacrifices all went together.

Theological nonsense.

I doubt that the Jews would agree with you.

Ask them who died from committing a sin?

 

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Adam lived a long life, even after his expellation from the garden.

We are talking about spiritual death, not physical death.  If Adam had been allowed to stay in the garden, he would have had access to the Tree of Life.  God banished him so eventually he died a physical and a spiritual death.

Interesting, so the death of Jesus only took care of the spiritual effects of Adam's sin, soemthing we cannot see or feel on know about, but it did not seem to work on the "physical" aspect, meaning we still die, women still feel the pains of child birth, we still have to work and sweat from our brow in order to eat. Pretty convenient Annie! The death of Jesus worked but it only worked on the "unseen" spiriutal death, and absolutely nothing changed with the physical effects of being banished from eden. And we have the church to trust on all this. I am convinced! See you in church!

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Moses wondered the desert for 40 years even after his "transgression".

So?  What is your point?

He was not dead. And nothing from the physical effects of the sin of Adam has changed since Jesus has come and gone.

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Please show me a single example from the Hebrew Scriptures where someone died from committing a sin. Do not confuse this with a punishment for a sin, such as adultery.

We are talking about a spiritual death.

Ah! Of course. 

Originally posted by Annie2

 

Originally posted by Andalus

The sacrificial system can expiate sin, but it cannot expiate every type of sin. So yes, a blood sacrifice and sincere repentance all go hand in hand, but a blood sacrifice could not expiate some sin which sincere repentance could, or a wheat offering was equal to a blood sacrifice. They were interchangable, but none relied on the other as you are trying to allude. 

The point is that the sacrificial system was an atonement for sins.  Notice that God set-up this system.  Why did He do that if "sincere" repentance and prayer were enough?

 

Your question is a "complex" question. This means you have unproven or stated assumption buried in it.

The sacrificial system only covered some sins, not all sin. Those not covered could be expiated through means that did not require blood. That is simply the way it is. The messianic verses talk of a new period when the sacrifical system will come back (which is problematic for the "replacement theology" of the church).

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:


You can rely on the mercy of God that He will forgive your sins, but you have not assurance that He will do so. 

Yes, this is why we all need the church and Jesus. This was the yoke placed around the hapless ex pagan gentiles' necks. In fact, you can rely on the Mercy of Gd, and you do have the ability to do as Gd commanded.

No one can obey God perfectly.  Moses and David couldn't.  And, yes, that is why we need Messiah Jesus.

Job did. And Moses stated otherwise. Please refer to your bible.

Originally posted by annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

1) Moses would be considered a heretic, else your church has told you a lie. We are capable of following the commands of Gd, and no one but you can do it.

Moses was not a heretic.  He was a human being and even he sinned.

 

Irrelevant. Moses was either lying or the church is wrong, or the Torah is innacruate. It is that simple. Which is it?

Originally posted by Annie2

 

Originally posted by Andalus

Deut 30:11-16

30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart,
that thou mayest do it.

30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil,

30:16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. 

God is saying to follow His commands.  There is nothing here saying that anyone could do it.

Actually there is. Pretty "black and white" and unambiguous:

30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

What part of "thou myest do it" is unclear?


Originally posted by Annie2

Scriptures in context:

30:11 This mandate that I am prescribing to you today is not too mysterious or remote from you. 30:12 It is not in heaven, so [that you should] say, 'Who shall go up to heaven and bring it to us so that we can hear it and keep it?' 30:13 It is not over the sea so [that you should] say, 'Who will cross the sea and get if for us, so that we will be able to hear it and keep it?' 30:14 It is something that is very close to you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can keep it.


Free Choice
30:15 See! Today I have set before you [a free choice] between life and good [on one side], and death and evil [on the other]. 30:16 I have commanded you today to love God your Lord, to walk in His paths, and to keep His commandments, decrees and laws. You will then survive and flourish, and God your Lord will bless you in the land that you are about to occupy. 30:17 But if your heart turns aside and you do not listen, you will be led astray to bow down to foreign gods and worship them. 30:18 I am warning you today, that [if you do that] you will be utterly exterminated. You will not last very long in the land which you are crossing the Jordan and coming to occupy. 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses! Before you I have placed life and death, the blessing and the curse. You must choose life, so that you and your descendants will survive. 30:20 [You must thus make the choice] to love God your Lord, to obey Him, and to attach yourself to Him. This is your sole means of survival and long life when you dwell in the land that God swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, [promising] that He would give it to them.

Starting with verse 17 God tells them what will happen if they do not follow His commands.  He must have believed that man had a problem following His commands and we do.

Funny. You stated the verse should be put in context, but you did nothing but repaste them, and the verses that appear after the last verse I pasted. This does not give a new "context", and the final verses do not invalidate what Moses said.

Gd stating a punishment for not obeying the law does not invalidate the the statement that we are capable of following the law. Verse 17 simply states the punishment for not keeping them. Laws can carry a punishment for disobeying it, not a prediction or a prophecy that it will not be obeyed. Your reasonign is like this: The law states that the speed limit is 60 MPH, and if you break this spead, you will be fined. This is not a prophecy that you will break the law, it is a statement of the punishmnet for breaking it.

Accroding to your line of reasoning, Gd would be crazy, giving a law, having His prophet tell us that we can follow it, and then implying that we cannot follow it.

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

]

Who would you believe since you claim your bible is the word of Gd, Moses, or your church? Moses, or second century ex-pagans who neither knew Jesus or Gd?

You know, Andalus, you are going to have to be a little more polite and show more respect for my religion.  Please try to do that.  Thank you.

I hardly see any rudeness.

Originally posted by Annie2

Originally posted by Andalus

]

2) Job kept the commands perfectly. Once again, your church has told you a falsehood (pious fraud). How else would you explain this if not an act of piouse fraud?

"If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse."—Job 9:20.

9:19 If it is for strength, behold He is mighty" But if it is for justice, who can who can plead on my behalf?

19:20 Even if I am righteous, my mouth would condemn me. [If] I am innocent, it would pronouce me crooked.

19:21 I am innocent, yet I cannot know rest! I am disgusted with my life!

The verse you quoted is a statement to Bildad concerning the idea of "contending with Gd". This is not an admission of not following the commands of Gd. You are attempting to twist a verse from its actual context.

1:1 states that Job was an upright man who feared Gd and shunned evil.

19:21 states that Job could not fathom contending with Gd.

Originally posted by Annie2

Job wavered in his confidence that God was for him. In defending himself against the bad theology of Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, he said things about God that were not true. He began to insist on his own righteousness at the expense of God's justice.

Irrelevant.

This does not chage the fact that we was a righteous man who followed His commands. Job's error was not in following the law, but in his derivation of philosophical matters regarding the nature of Gd. The point of the thread is that Job clearly followed the commands of Gd. 

 

Originally posted by Annie2

Lessons in Job:

1. Believe with all your heart in the absolute sovereignty of God. Pray that God would give you that conviction.

2. Believe with all your heart that everything he does is right and good. Pray that God will give you that assurance.

3. Repent of all the times you have questioned God or found fault with him in the way he has treated you. Pray that God would humble you to see these murmurings as sinful.

4. Be satisfied with the holy will of God and do not murmur.

5.  Don't blame God for the ill that befalls you.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

Is completely deflects from the topic. You claim no one can follow the commands correctly, yet Job clearly did. The error you are talking about is not about following the law. It is about the nature of Gd.

Originally posted by Annie2

 

Originally posted by Andalus

]

Annie2 wrote:


I believe that God saw this and provided a way so that we all could live with Him in the thereafter and that was the sacrifice of Messiah Jesus.

Annie

So why did Gd not tell Moses that His system was not complete and they really needed the second part of the triune to come to earth and die? Deut 30:14 says, in no uncertain form, that we can do what we are told, and we are not incapable automatons who Gd mindlessly fed a buch of useless commands because we needed Him to be an ultimate blood sacrifice. And if Jesus is a literal blood sacrifice, then where is the literal stone alter?

The specific laws in the Torah regarding the sprinkling of the blood on the altar had to do with the sacrifices offered on that altar.

Yes, and that alter was required for a blood sacrifice that could expiate sin. Your theology points to Jesus as being a blood sacrifice, a literal one, just as the sacrifices that appear in the Torah. These sacrifces required a stone alter.

Originally posted by Annie2

  At other times in the Hebrew Scriptures blood and sacrifices were offered in different ways and in different places. 

We are not talking about other times, we are talking about the time during the temple, and we are talking about a blood sacrifice that expiates sin, according to the Torah.

Originally posted by Annie2

 

 More importantly, there is obviously no connection between the laws for offering animal sacrifices on the altar and the Jewish teaching that the death of the righteous atones.  Therefore, the blood of those righteous martyrs did not have to be poured out on the altar of Jerusalem.

I must have missed that teaching. Could you please explain the "Jewish" teaching of a person dying as a blood sacrifice to expiate sin? (sin including intentional and unintentional, adultery, etc)

Originally posted by Annie2

God accepted blood sacrifices that were not offered up on the altar in Jerusalem (see e.g. 2 Sam 24:17-25 and 1 Kings 18:31-39.)

 

2 Samuel 24:17-25 is a narrow exception and does not help your case:

1) It was pre temple.

2) Araunah's place as on Mt Moriah, the believed spot where Abraham had intended to sacrifice his son.

1 Kings 18:31-39

Another narrow exception that is not relevant to your claim.

1) This was not a sacrificial offering to expiate sin.

2) This was to contrast the offerings offered by the pagans, to show everyone who the true Gd was.

3) The site was of value, pre temple value. Beth-el was the site Jacob became Israel.

 

Originally posted by Annie2

If Messiah Jesus' blood had been shed on the Temple altar in Jerusalem according to the Torah's requirements, would you then believe in him?

Annie

What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?

If Gd stated these things, and addressed these issues, then it would be pluasable to believe that Gd came to earth and acted as a blood sacrifice, although odd given that it would still raise serious theological issues, such as why Gd needed to do all that in the first place?

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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2006 at 3:21pm

"What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?"

God states numerous times that human sacrifice is an abomination and not of His command:

2 Kings 16:3 Instead, he followed the example of the kings of Israel, even sacrificing his own son in the fire. He imitated the detestable practices of the pagan nations the LORD had driven from the land ahead of the Israelites.

Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 20:2 “Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Deuteronomy 12:31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire

Deuteronomy 12:31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2006 at 6:56pm

Assalam Aleikum Sr.

You are absolutely in line and absolutely correct, and you saved Annie the time whi is no doubt looking through websites on the matter. Believe it or not, some sites, like Christian think tank point out that the prohibitions are against the sacrifice of children. As if this makes it ok to sacrifice humans as long as they are adults! Funny but true.

Originally posted by Mishmish

"What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?"

God states numerous times that human sacrifice is an abomination and not of His command:

2 Kings 16:3 Instead, he followed the example of the kings of Israel, even sacrificing his own son in the fire. He imitated the detestable practices of the pagan nations the LORD had driven from the land ahead of the Israelites.

Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 20:2 “Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Deuteronomy 12:31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire

Deuteronomy 12:31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2006 at 7:14am
Originally posted by Mishmish

"What is the ruling on human sacrifces? Where does Gd say, in the Torah, that He will make an offering to expiate sins?"

God states numerous times that human sacrifice is an abomination and not of His command:

2 Kings 16:3 Instead, he followed the example of the kings of Israel, even sacrificing his own son in the fire. He imitated the detestable practices of the pagan nations the LORD had driven from the land ahead of the Israelites.

Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 20:2 “Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Deuteronomy 12:31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire

Deuteronomy 12:31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’


Making a sacrifice of a child is murder.  Jesus went to the cross willingly.  See the difference?

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2006 at 7:16am

Originally posted by BMZ

Annie,

Did you read my post that I wrote on Paul making the Offering. I wrote it this morning but I have forgotten where I posted that.

No, I didn't.

Originally posted by BMZ

Please read ACTS 21:1-26 and specially 21:26 and you will realise that Paul did sacrifise and made the animal Offering.

Have you ever heard of the Nazirite Vow?  Read up on it and you will understand how you have misinterpreted what is going on in verse 26.

Originally posted by BMZ

as recommended by the Elders and James of the Jerusalem Church, even though Jesus was long gone

Acts 26

17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will[c] hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except [d] that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Originally posted by BMZ

It means the Elders in the Jerusalem Church were going on with the Law and Sacrifices or Offerings were ordered by them, otherwise why would have they sent Paul with the four men to purify and make the Offerings?

Nope.

Originally posted by BMZ

What do you think? I think the Law stands. You still have to carry out Animal sacrifice, Annie!

If you believe the Law still stands, then why don't Muslims offer sacrifices for forgiveness of sins?

James says,"Whoever keeps the whole Law but fails in one point of it is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10).

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2006 at 8:58am

Annie,

From you: "If you believe the Law still stands, then why don't Muslims offer sacrifices for forgiveness of sins?"

We do that, Annie and we feed all the meat to the poor and needy or the starving ones. It is not the blood or flesh of the animals that reaches God Almighty. It is the obedience to God and God's Law that matters most. For us the law stands.

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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2006 at 11:35am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

From you: "If you believe the Law still stands, then why don't Muslims offer sacrifices for forgiveness of sins?"

We do that, Annie and we feed all the meat to the poor and needy or the starving ones. It is not the blood or flesh of the animals that reaches God Almighty. It is the obedience to God and God's Law that matters most. For us the law stands.



Muslims sacrifice animals for forgiveness of sins?  I thought the only thing the Muslims needed to do besides believing in Allah and Muhammad plus the rituals, praying 5 times per day, etc., was to ask for forgiveness and God would give it.  You are saying that isn't true?

I am aware of the animal sacrifices during one of your festivals and that you give the meat to the poor, but I was not aware that Muslims sacrifice animals as atonement for sins.  Do you sprinkle the blood on an altar like the Jewish law says?

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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