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Message Icon Topic: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins. Post Reply Post New Topic
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:17pm

Angela,

This was really a good one from you:"If you are living a faithful Christian life, then you are doing works.  But, I know a few ladies from back at my grandmother's Methodist Church that sit there every Sunday, but when the bake sales or charity programs happen, they disappear.  Hypocrisy is everywhere."

Beautiful and correct observation.

We have a verse in Qur'aan and I would love to transliterate it first and translate in English, you might enjoy that:

"Lan Tana-lul-bir-raa, Hat-ta Tun-fay-qu mim-maa Tu-hib-boon"

simply translated it means "You can't find righteousness until you spend freely what you love most." 

In other words, one cannot reach that higehst level of righteousness until one can spend one's wealth in the service of God Almighty by spending on the poor and the needy.

BMZ

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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:20pm

BMZ,

I'm sure you don't need 1 Corinthians 13?  That is my favorite scripture.  Charity being the greatest act of faith.

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:34pm

That is beautiful, Angela.

I thank God Almighty to have blessed so many of us with a golden heart.

After reading posts from your goodself and Patty, I have a feeling that the Mormons and Catholics feel closer to Islam while some  Evangelist Protestants tend to widen the gaps large, allowing no bridges to be built.

Best Regards

BMZ

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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2006 at 7:45pm

  I think its because Catholics and Mormons understand what its like to have your beliefs misunderstood and twisted for politics.  There is a real focus in both Churches on reaching out and building interfaith relations.  Pope John Paul II was big on fostering Peace and Pope Benedict the XVI has denounced the war.  Prophet Hinckley has instructed us to be charitable and to extend hands in peace, love and charity.

Islam is a beautiful faith, reading the Hadiths you can see the qualities of Prophet Muhammed Peace Be Upon Him . 

I think we need to focus on being more Christlike and more like the Great Prophets.  The world would be a better place if we did what the scriptures dictate to us.



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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2006 at 10:26pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Originally posted by zulqarnain

This is totally illogical. Any christian should please explain to me why do you believe this; becasue it is mentioned in the Bible? What is the logic behind this.

How can any soul be responsible for the wrong of another soul? Islam says that every soul is reponsible for it's own actions.



And Christians are responsible for their sins as well.

But Christians are unable to live a good life according to the laws of Gd, so they believe Gd was birthed through his mother to enter this world so He could die and "fulfill" the law, that way they could live according to the laws of man. So although Christians are responsible for sin, they are incapable of doing what is right and need Jesus as a sacrifice to serve as a "sin sacrifice" fo all future sins that have yet to be committed.

Christians have to make up their own laws, mad made laws, because Gd's laws are irrelevant.  

 

So, yes Christians are responsible for sin, but they are incapable of follwing Gd's commands and require a "super sacrifice".

 

Originally posted by Annie2


In the Old Testament you can find scriptures where one person's death atoned for the sins of another.

If you look at Isaiah 53, whether you believe it is referring to Jesus or not, you will see:

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

There are other verses I could offer.

http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss18.html

This verse does not saying anything about atoning for every sin within the same context as your belief that Jesus was a super "divine" sacrifice for sins including getting high, adultery, etc. Isaiah 53:12 does not state, or imply, that the suffering servant will be able to bear "sin", as in a "sin blood atonement" for crack heads or prostitutes.

Originally posted by Annie2


The penalty for sins was death.  God setup the sacrificial system as atonement for sins.  Repentance, prayer and sacrifices all went together.

Theological nonsense.

Adam lived a long life, even after his expellation from the garden.

Moses wondered the desert for 40 years even after his "transgression".

Please show me a single example from the Hebrew Scriptures where someone died from committing a sin. Do not confuse this with a punishment for a sin, such as adultery.

The sacrificial system can expiate sin, but it cannot expiate every type of sin. So yes, a blood sacrifice and sincere repentance all go hand in hand, but a blood sacrifice could not expiate some sin which sincere repentance could, or a wheat offering was equal to a blood sacrifice. They were interchangable, but none relied on the other as you are trying to allude. 

 

Originally posted by Annie2


You can rely on the mercy of God that He will forgive your sins, but you have not assurance that He will do so. 

Yes, this is why we all need the church and Jesus. This was the yoke placed around the hapless ex pagan gentiles' necks. In fact, you can rely on the Mercy of Gd, and you do have the ability to do as Gd commanded.

Originally posted by Annie2

 We do not keep God's laws perfectly, we do not worship Him perfectly, we are human and we sin and there is no doubt about it.

There is only doubt from Christians who believe they are incapable of having a relaitonship with Gd unless he birthed Himself and then died, so that all of the future sins they will commit because they have no ability to do so can be forgiven.

1) Moses would be considered a heretic, else your church has told you a lie. We are capable of following the commands of Gd, and no one but you can do it.

Deut 30:11-16

30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil,

30:16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

Who would you believe since you claim your bible is the word of Gd, Moses, or your church? Moses, or second century ex-pagans who neither knew Jesus or Gd?

2) Job kept the commands perfectly. Once again, your church has told you a falsehood (pious fraud). How else would you explain this if not an act of piouse fraud?


Originally posted by Annie2


I believe that God saw this and provided a way so that we all could live with Him in the thereafter and that was the sacrifice of Messiah Jesus.

Annie

So why did Gd not tell Moses that His system was not complete and they really needed the second part of the triune to come to earth and die? Deut 30:14 says, in no uncertain form, that we can do what we are told, and we are not incapable automatons who Gd mindlessly fed a buch of useless commands because we needed Him to be an ultimate blood sacrifice. And if Jesus is a literal blood sacrifice, then where is the literal stone alter?

Peace 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2006 at 4:42am

If Jesus was just a man, then he couldn't die for our sins. But he is God.  A man can only pay for the sins of another man.  Who will pay the penalty of the sins of all men?  Only God, who is infinite, can pay an infinite penalty.  Only God, in the Person of Christ, could be a propitiation for the sins of the whole world.  All men are under the curse of physical and spiritual death if they are sinners, only Chirst can take that curse upon himself, and did so at the cross that those who trust in him will never perish but have eternal life.

Sin must be atoned for. God can't just hand wave it away because, while he is merciful, he is just. So he had to create a way for sins to be paid for by a substitute. HIMSELF. As the Judge and the Victim of the crime (sin) he was in the unique position to forgive the sin by taking the penalty upon himself in the person of Christ.

Substitutionary atonement was instituted in the OT by the animal sacrifices. But the animals did not actually take the sin away. They were a metaphor that helped the Israelites understand that something precious would be required to forgive their sins, the Messiah who would come one day would be the one who forgave the sins by his ultimate sacrifice.

Messiah Jesus had to be our kinsmen redeemer. The bible treats sin as a debt that must be paid.

A kinsman redeemer was a close relative that could pay the debt of a relative that would otherwise be sold into slavery or be impoverished (Leviticus 25, Ruth). The redeemer had to be a close relative, not in debt himself, willing to redeem, and the redemption was completed when the price was fully paid.

Thus Messiah Jesus could be our redeemer because he was one of us (and God too) and because he had no sin debt of his own. He sacrificed himself willingly for his relatives (us) so that we might be free of our debt of sin.


Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2006 at 6:12am

Originally posted by Andalus

But Christians are unable to live a good life according to the laws of Gd, so they believe Gd was birthed through his mother to enter this world so He could die and "fulfill" the law, that way they could live according to the laws of man. So although Christians are responsible for sin, they are incapable of doing what is right and need Jesus as a sacrifice to serve as a "sin sacrifice" fo all future sins that have yet to be committed.

Who is capable of obeying God perfectly?  No one.

Originally posted by Andalus

Christians have to make up their own laws, mad made laws, because Gd's laws are irrelevant.  

Try living up to the commands of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.  These are my guidelines.

Originally posted by Andalus

So, yes Christians are responsible for sin, but they are incapable of follwing Gd's commands and require a "super sacrifice".

Who is capable of obeying God's commands perfectly?

Originally posted by Andalus

This verse does not saying anything about atoning for every sin within the same context as your belief that Jesus was a super "divine" sacrifice for sins including getting high, adultery, etc. Isaiah 53:12 does not state, or imply, that the suffering servant will be able to bear "sin", as in a "sin blood atonement" for crack heads or prostitutes. 

I beg your pardon?

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:


The penalty for sins was death.  God setup the sacrificial system as atonement for sins.  Repentance, prayer and sacrifices all went together.

Theological nonsense.

I doubt that the Jews would agree with you.

Originally posted by Andalus

Adam lived a long life, even after his expellation from the garden.

We are talking about spiritual death, not physical death.  If Adam had been allowed to stay in the garden, he would have had access to the Tree of Life.  God banished him so eventually he died a physical and a spiritual death.

Originally posted by Andalus

Moses wondered the desert for 40 years even after his "transgression".

So?  What is your point?

Originally posted by Andalus

Please show me a single example from the Hebrew Scriptures where someone died from committing a sin. Do not confuse this with a punishment for a sin, such as adultery.

We are talking about a spiritual death.

Originally posted by Andalus

The sacrificial system can expiate sin, but it cannot expiate every type of sin. So yes, a blood sacrifice and sincere repentance all go hand in hand, but a blood sacrifice could not expiate some sin which sincere repentance could, or a wheat offering was equal to a blood sacrifice. They were interchangable, but none relied on the other as you are trying to allude. 

The point is that the sacrificial system was an atonement for sins.  Notice that God set-up this system.  Why did He do that if "sincere" repentance and prayer were enough?

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:


You can rely on the mercy of God that He will forgive your sins, but you have not assurance that He will do so. 

Yes, this is why we all need the church and Jesus. This was the yoke placed around the hapless ex pagan gentiles' necks. In fact, you can rely on the Mercy of Gd, and you do have the ability to do as Gd commanded.

No one can obey God perfectly.  Moses and David couldn't.  And, yes, that is why we need Messiah Jesus.

 

Originally posted by Andalus

Annie2 wrote:

 We do not keep God's laws perfectly, we do not worship Him perfectly, we are human and we sin and there is no doubt about it.

There is only doubt from Christians who believe they are incapable of having a relaitonship with Gd unless he birthed Himself and then died, so that all of the future sins they will commit because they have no ability to do so can be forgiven.

When I said "we" I meant all people on the earth, including Muslims.

Originally posted by Andalus

1) Moses would be considered a heretic, else your church has told you a lie. We are capable of following the commands of Gd, and no one but you can do it.

Moses was not a heretic.  He was a human being and even he sinned.

Originally posted by Andalus

Deut 30:11-16

30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart,
that thou mayest do it.

30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil,

30:16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. 

God is saying to follow His commands.  There is nothing here saying that anyone could do it.

Scriptures in context:

30:11 This mandate that I am prescribing to you today is not too mysterious or remote from you. 30:12 It is not in heaven, so [that you should] say, 'Who shall go up to heaven and bring it to us so that we can hear it and keep it?' 30:13 It is not over the sea so [that you should] say, 'Who will cross the sea and get if for us, so that we will be able to hear it and keep it?' 30:14 It is something that is very close to you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can keep it.


Free Choice
30:15 See! Today I have set before you [a free choice] between life and good [on one side], and death and evil [on the other]. 30:16 I have commanded you today to love God your Lord, to walk in His paths, and to keep His commandments, decrees and laws. You will then survive and flourish, and God your Lord will bless you in the land that you are about to occupy. 30:17 But if your heart turns aside and you do not listen, you will be led astray to bow down to foreign gods and worship them. 30:18 I am warning you today, that [if you do that] you will be utterly exterminated. You will not last very long in the land which you are crossing the Jordan and coming to occupy. 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses! Before you I have placed life and death, the blessing and the curse. You must choose life, so that you and your descendants will survive. 30:20 [You must thus make the choice] to love God your Lord, to obey Him, and to attach yourself to Him. This is your sole means of survival and long life when you dwell in the land that God swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, [promising] that He would give it to them.

Starting with verse 17 God tells them what will happen if they do not follow His commands.  He must have believed that man had a problem following His commands and we do.

Originally posted by Andalus

]

Who would you believe since you claim your bible is the word of Gd, Moses, or your church? Moses, or second century ex-pagans who neither knew Jesus or Gd?

You know, Andalus, you are going to have to be a little more polite and show more respect for my religion.  Please try to do that.  Thank you.

Originally posted by Andalus

]

2) Job kept the commands perfectly. Once again, your church has told you a falsehood (pious fraud). How else would you explain this if not an act of piouse fraud?

"If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse."—Job 9:20.

Job wavered in his confidence that God was for him. In defending himself against the bad theology of Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, he said things about God that were not true. He began to insist on his own righteousness at the expense of God's justice.

Lessons in Job:

1. Believe with all your heart in the absolute sovereignty of God. Pray that God would give you that conviction.

2. Believe with all your heart that everything he does is right and good. Pray that God will give you that assurance.

3. Repent of all the times you have questioned God or found fault with him in the way he has treated you. Pray that God would humble you to see these murmurings as sinful.

4. Be satisfied with the holy will of God and do not murmur.

5.  Don't blame God for the ill that befalls you.

 

Originally posted by Andalus

]

Annie2 wrote:


I believe that God saw this and provided a way so that we all could live with Him in the thereafter and that was the sacrifice of Messiah Jesus.

Annie

So why did Gd not tell Moses that His system was not complete and they really needed the second part of the triune to come to earth and die? Deut 30:14 says, in no uncertain form, that we can do what we are told, and we are not incapable automatons who Gd mindlessly fed a buch of useless commands because we needed Him to be an ultimate blood sacrifice. And if Jesus is a literal blood sacrifice, then where is the literal stone alter?

The specific laws in the Torah regarding the sprinkling of the blood on the altar had to do with the sacrifices offered on that altar.  At other times in the Hebrew Scriptures blood and sacrifices were offered in different ways and in different places.  More importantly, there is obviously no connection between the laws for offering animal sacrifices on the altar and the Jewish teaching that the death of the righteous atones.  Therefore, the blood of those righteous martyrs did not have to be poured out on the altar of Jerusalem.

God accepted blood sacrifices that were not offered up on the altar in Jerusalem (see e.g. 2 Sam 24:17-25 and 1 Kings 18:31-39.)

If Messiah Jesus' blood had been shed on the Temple altar in Jerusalem according to the Torah's requirements, would you then believe in him?

Annie



Edited by AnnieTwo
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2006 at 9:05am

Dear All,

I just wish to clarify a few points.

Islam in itself does not have any Messiahs. It recognises all the Messiahs (The anointed ones) of the Jews or simply put the prophets to the Jews.

Qur'aan uses the the term Maseeh in Arabic and that is the equivalent to the Messiah of the Jews. Qur'aan uses the term of Maseeh only for Jesus, as he was known to his people. Qur'aan mentions his name as Jesus Maseeh, the son of Maryam and in Arabic "Maseeh Essabna Maryam", clearly calls him an excellent and devout servant and prophet of God Almighty, sent to Bani Israel (Children of Israel a fondly term for the Jews).

However, Qur'aan does not call him King Messiah or any special Messiah. The majority of Muslim scholars and most Muslims believe that Jesus will come back to clarify what he really was. Muslim scholars quote a verse in Qur'aan and say that it possibly points to the Second Coming of Jesus, wheras in fact it does not point to his Second Coming.

However, there is no clear verse that says, "Jesus will come back". If coming back of Jesus were serious and true and God wanted that, then God would have said so very clearly in the Final Scripture, Qur'aan, instead of hinting.

The subject of Hadith has lots of stories about this Second Coming. Mine is only a personal view. I base my view on the verses that say "Muhammad is the Final Prophet or the Final Stamp/Seal of Prophets" and God says,"The religion of God is complete now."

Jesus himself confirms in the Bible that he accomplished the task given to him, meaning he completed his job. Jesus had completed the Injeel that was given to him. The Injeel in reality means what he preached or taught and the knowledge that he had came from or was given to him by God Almighty. I don't see why should Jesus return? Jesus in Islam was a prophet and no one is supposed to come after Muhammad.



Edited by bmzsp
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