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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins. Post Reply Post New Topic
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AnnieTwo
 
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:57am
Angela,

Aren't we getting into the territory of which God are we speaking of?  The one who lives on "Main Street" or the one who lives on "State Street?"

How can Muslims claim to love or believe in Jesus as their beloved prophet when rejecting him as Messiah?  The "son of God" as understood in first century Judaism was another title for the Messiah.

Didn't Jesus say that unless we believe that he is the Messiah, we will die in our sins? 

If Allah says he doesn't have "sons" and YHVH claims that he does, are we worshipping the same God?

And if we are not worshipping the same God then....

Annie

Originally posted by Angela


As far as I have learned, the Muslims do accept Jesus as the Messiah.


They accept him as a Messiah, similar to the other Messiahs, but not as the Messiah, the King Messiah.  The Messiah that the Jews are still waiting for who will bring in the end of their exile and forgiveness of sins, and the Kingdom of God. [/QUOTE]

<>
Originally posted by Angela


Just not the Son of God, but a miraculous creation of God.


I don't understand what you mean.  I know they don't believe that Jesus is divine, but the term "son of God" does not in itself mean divinity; it is a term used by God which denotes a special relationship with a certain person or nation.

Originally posted by Angela


They reject the notion that God needs a Son. 


"Needs a Son" in what way?  God is self-sufficient and needs no one, but He chose sons.

Originally posted by Angela


or that there is Salvation through a sacrifice by Proxy.


God provides salvation for man as He sees fit.

Originally posted by Anglea


The Messiah as in the Jewish Messiah was not the same as we Christians define the Messiah.


The Jews expected all kinds of things in the first century.  One was a warrior Messiah.  Jesus' view was one of peace.  Some Jews expect two Messiahs.

Originally posted by Angela


But, Jesus is the Messiah in both Islam and Christianity with different definitions of what that means.


Jesus is a Messiah in Islam; Jesus is the Messiah in Christianity.

Originally posted by Angela


They believe in Jesus, but deny his Divine Sonship.


I know this.

Originally posted by Angela


It comes down to trusting in Scriptures written between 20-100 years after the death and resurrection. 


I think it is more than that.  I think it is a matter that the Qur'an contradicts the Scriptures.

Proof will come in time...

Originally posted by Angela


Revelation 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Both the Muslims and the Christians believe Christ will return.  We must have faith that when he does, he will put to rest any false teachings done in his name. 


BMZ does not believe that Jesus will come again, so there must be others who believe as he does out there somewhere.

Good wishes to you, Angela. :)

Annie



Edited by AnnieTwo
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2006 at 12:52pm

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

This is the best site I've found as to what mainstream Muslims believe about Christ.

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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2006 at 2:33pm

Angela, you are doing a great job, Masha'Allah.

Annietwo: Muslims do not doubt the miracle of the birth of Jesus, we just do not see it as any more miraculous than the creation of Adam, who had no mother or father, or Eve, who was created from a rib. We do not see any of these Prophets as being divine.

I believe that Jesus will return. Most Muslims do. Jesus had/has a special purpose, of that there is no doubt. But he is not God, Godlike, part of a Godhead, or divine in any way.

To believe that accepting Jesus as your salvation will immediately get you into heaven is to twist the scriptures into fallacy.

Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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AnnieTwo
 
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2006 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

Angela, you are doing a great job, Masha'Allah.

Annietwo: Muslims do not doubt the miracle of the birth of Jesus, we just do not see it as any more miraculous than the creation of Adam, who had no mother or father, or Eve, who was created from a rib. We do not see any of these Prophets as being divine.


I know you believe in the miraculous birth of Jesus.  Jesus' birth was more miraculous than that of Adam because God had no choice in creating Adam without a mother or father.  He had a choice with Jesus.  In other words, God went outside of the already establishing way of producing children.  He had to have had a reason for that.  Christians believe it was because of the incarnation.  And because of the incarnation, no other prophet was divine, only Messiah Jesus.

Originally posted by Mishmish


I believe that Jesus will return. Most Muslims do. Jesus had/has a special purpose, of that there is no doubt. But he is not God, Godlike, part of a Godhead, or divine in any way.


I believe that he will return too.  Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus was divine in nature via the incarnation of the Word of God.  No other prophet made the claims that Jesus did.

Originally posted by Mishmish


To believe that accepting Jesus as your salvation will immediately get you into heaven is to twist the scriptures into fallacy.


How so?  This is what Jesus preached.

Originally posted by Mishmish


Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Yes, there are many Christians who will not make it.  Christians who play lip service to being a Christian who are not really Christians.  Christians who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.  They are only fooling themselves.  This is what Jesus meant with the scriptures above.

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2006 at 3:37pm

Annie:

God ALWAYS has a choice....

 

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2006 at 3:55pm

Annie wrote:

Mishmish wrote:

To believe that accepting Jesus as your salvation will immediately get you into heaven is to twist the scriptures into fallacy.


"How so?  This is what Jesus preached."

The Bible does state otherwise... in these passages it also states that Abraham's faith was perfected without accepting Jesus as his savior or God.

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

 2:19 You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 2:25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.



Edited by Mishmish
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2006 at 7:47pm

Mishmish,

That very point is one of the reason Orthodox Christians reject my faith....they believe by Grace alone will we be saved that no works are needed.

But, I'm glad you think I'm doing well.  LOL

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mariyah
 
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Quote mariyah Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2006 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Angela

Mishmish,

That very point is one of the reason Orthodox Christians reject my faith....they believe by Grace alone will we be saved that no works are needed.

But, I'm glad you think I'm doing well.  LOL

 

Faith without Works is DEAD...Can't they read?

"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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