IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.

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BMZ

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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 7:35pm

Zulqarnain,

Jesus came into this world with the following prime message:

"You shall worship only your One God and you shall worship that One God with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." (My quote showing the key message)

The entire Law and the Universe revolve around this. Jesus did not come here to carry people's sins or anybody's sins. That is not what he taught himself openly and that was never his line of teaching.

The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin.

God Almighty's Mercy and Compassion has been known to the mankind, even before the arrival and exit of Jesus. That Mercy and Compassion extends to everything. You will find this clear verse in Qur'aan.

No soul shall bear the burdens of anyone. The already-burdened ones would not want to bear any additional burdens of their own kids, family and relatives. They will say,"I am already burdened, don't you see I am so over-loaded! You go and carry your own!".

Edited by bmzsp

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DavidC

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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 10:23pm

Originally posted by Angela

But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere. You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven.

I said believe, not just say you believe. Hypocrites need not apply.

David C.

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Patty

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Posted: 14 June 2006 at 6:18am

BMZ said:

"The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin."

Jesus said to them in John 8:32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Verse 36 “Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Jesus continued to give His disciples more information on His purpose for coming to earth. Mark 8:31: “And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again”

John 12:23-25: “But Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified." Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

There are many other Gospel verses spoken by Jesus, but these I believe point out the fact that Jesus did speak of the importance of His death for the redemption of our sins.

God's Peace.

Edited by Patty

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

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zulqarnain

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Posted: 14 June 2006 at 9:29am

Look everybody. I agree taht "Common sense" is man's tool of evaluating logically, and that Allah's Plans cannot be understood by human minds. The more we study of God's Plan, the more puzzles there are to solve. The educated Christians should eveluate their religion as far as their logic can reach. A word from Allah ceases to be His Word, if it is not compatible with modern times, for He knows the future. This verse from the Bible is a fabrication of an author.
Look now, you people have to admit, e.g. if you had to choose a religion and you are pretty well educated, you would choose the religion which is most logical and is compatible with modern times. I won't argu further, because it would deviate from the topic
Every soul is responsible for it's own action, nobody can be held responsible for the other, even a follower of a teacher should analyze his teachings before he follows it.

And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)

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AnnieTwo

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Posted: 14 June 2006 at 10:41am

Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by DavidC

But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation.

I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation.

And the discussion is wandering off topic...

Not necessarily. If the topic is Jesus did not die for our sins, a fundamental part of that is who receives the Salvation and who doesn't.

If you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do good deeds, then salvation can be had. But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere. You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven. Therefore, in my mind, you can't be a good person and do good works and go to hell just for not accepting Christ.

The question is when Christ died. Was it to erase sins or to conquer death (given death being the result of the Original Sin)?

Are my sins erased just by his death, or by my own repentance and works?

What about those Muslims who pray to God 5 times a day and ask forgiveness for their sins? Would go not accept their repentance just because they claim Jesus as their beloved Prophet and not God's Son?

Aren't we getting into the territory of which God are we speaking of? The one who lives on "Main Street" or the one who lives on "State Street?"

How can Muslims claim to love or believe in Jesus as their beloved prophet when rejecting him as Messiah? The "son of God" as understood in first century Judaism was another title for the Messiah.

Didn't Jesus say that unless we believe that he is the Messiah, we will die in our sins?

If Allah says he doesn't have "sons" and YHVH claims that he does, are we worshipping the same God?

And if we are not worshipping the same God then....

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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AnnieTwo

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Posted: 14 June 2006 at 10:55am

Originally posted by bmzsp

Zulqarnain,

Jesus came into this world with the following prime message:

"You shall worship only your One God and you shall worship that One God with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." (My quote showing the key message)

So this is what the Jews and Christians do. This is not the reason Jesus came into this world. He came primarily to bring in the Kingdom of God which included the forgiveness of sins.

He did and you can find the passages where he said it. "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45).

The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

No so. Jesus was a prophet and knew the Old Testament Scriptures. He knew the fall of man and the cause and he also knew the cure.

Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin.

See above.

Yes, God has mercy and compassion but he hates sins and none of us can obey him perfectly. "Be holy because I am holy." Man falls too short. We couldn't possibly do enough good works to pay our way to paradise. We needed a savior and God provided.

We all are responsible for our own sins.

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Angela
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Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:07am

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Aren't we getting into the territory of which God are we speaking of? The one who lives on "Main Street" or the one who lives on "State Street?"

How can Muslims claim to love or believe in Jesus as their beloved prophet when rejecting him as Messiah? The "son of God" as understood in first century Judaism was another title for the Messiah.

Didn't Jesus say that unless we believe that he is the Messiah, we will die in our sins?

If Allah says he doesn't have "sons" and YHVH claims that he does, are we worshipping the same God?

And if we are not worshipping the same God then....

Annie

As far as I have learned, the Muslims do accept Jesus as the Messiah. Just not the Son of God, but a miraculous creation of God. They reject the notion that God needs a Son or that there is Salvation through a sacrifice by Proxy. The Messiah as in the Jewish Messiah was not the same as we Christians define the Messiah. But, Jesus is the Messiah in both Islam and Christianity with different definitions of what that means.

They believe in Jesus, but deny his Divine Sonship. It comes down to trusting in Scriptures written between 20-100 years after the death and resurrection.

Proof will come in time...

Revelation 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Both the Muslims and the Christians believe Christ will return. We must have faith that when he does, he will put to rest any false teachings done in his name.

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AnnieTwo

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Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:42am

Originally posted by DavidC

Matt. 12:31 And so I tell you, every human sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matt. 12:32 And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.
Matt. 12:33 ¶ ‘Make a tree sound and its fruit will be sound; make a tree rotten and its fruit will be rotten. For the tree can be told by its fruit.
Matt. 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can your speech be good when you are evil? For words flow out of what fills the heart.
Matt. 12:35 Good people draw good things from their store of goodness; bad people draw bad things from their store of badness.

# # #
Luke 12:10 ¶ ‘Everyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but no one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven.
Luke 6:43 ¶ ‘There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit.
Luke 6:44 Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles.
Luke 6:45 Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart.
# # #

Mark 3:28 ¶ ‘In truth I tell you, all human sins will be forgiven, and all the blasphemies ever uttered;
Mark 3:29 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’

David,

You might get something out of this article. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html

It is why I disagreed with you.

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Topic: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.
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Author	Message
BMZ Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1852	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 7:35pm
	Zulqarnain, Jesus came into this world with the following prime message: "You shall worship only your One God and you shall worship that One God with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." (My quote showing the key message) The entire Law and the Universe revolve around this. Jesus did not come here to carry people's sins or anybody's sins. That is not what he taught himself openly and that was never his line of teaching. The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin. God Almighty's Mercy and Compassion has been known to the mankind, even before the arrival and exit of Jesus. That Mercy and Compassion extends to everything. You will find this clear verse in Qur'aan. No soul shall bear the burdens of anyone. The already-burdened ones would not want to bear any additional burdens of their own kids, family and relatives. They will say,"I am already burdened, don't you see I am so over-loaded! You go and carry your own!". Edited by bmzsp
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DavidC Senior Member Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2211	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 10:23pm
	*Originally posted by Angela* But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere. You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven. I said believe, not just say you believe. Hypocrites need not apply.
	David C.
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Patty Senior Member Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2382	Posted: 14 June 2006 at 6:18am
	BMZ said: "The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin." Jesus said to them in John 8:32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Verse 36 “Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. Jesus continued to give His disciples more information on His purpose for coming to earth. Mark 8:31: “And He began to teach them that the Son of Man* must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again”* John 12:23-25: “But Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified." Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. There are many other Gospel verses spoken by Jesus, but these I believe point out the fact that Jesus did speak of the importance of His death for the redemption of our sins. God's Peace. Edited by Patty
	Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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zulqarnain Groupie Joined: 24 April 2006 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 94	Posted: 14 June 2006 at 9:29am
	Look everybody. I agree taht "Common sense" is man's tool of evaluating logically, and that Allah's Plans cannot be understood by human minds. The more we study of God's Plan, the more puzzles there are to solve. The educated Christians should eveluate their religion as far as their logic can reach. A word from Allah ceases to be His Word, if it is not compatible with modern times, for He knows the future. This verse from the Bible is a fabrication of an author. Look now, you people have to admit, e.g. if you had to choose a religion and you are pretty well educated, you would choose the religion which is most logical and is compatible with modern times. I won't argu further, because it would deviate from the topic Every soul is responsible for it's own action, nobody can be held responsible for the other, even a follower of a teacher should analyze his teachings before he follows it.
	And We have not sent you(O Muhammad!) but as a mercy to the worlds. (Al-Quran 21: 107)
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AnnieTwo Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 14 June 2006 at 10:41am
	*Originally posted by Angela* *Originally posted by DavidC* But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation. I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation. And the discussion is wandering off topic... Not necessarily. If the topic is Jesus did not die for our sins, a fundamental part of that is who receives the Salvation and who doesn't. If you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do good deeds, then salvation can be had. But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere. You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven. Therefore, in my mind, you can't be a good person and do good works and go to hell just for not accepting Christ. The question is when Christ died. Was it to erase sins or to conquer death (given death being the result of the Original Sin)? Are my sins erased just by his death, or by my own repentance and works? What about those Muslims who pray to God 5 times a day and ask forgiveness for their sins? Would go not accept their repentance just because they claim Jesus as their beloved Prophet and not God's Son? Aren't we getting into the territory of which God are we speaking of? The one who lives on "Main Street" or the one who lives on "State Street?" How can Muslims claim to love or believe in Jesus as their beloved prophet when rejecting him as Messiah? The "son of God" as understood in first century Judaism was another title for the Messiah. Didn't Jesus say that unless we believe that he is the Messiah, we will die in our sins? If Allah says he doesn't have "sons" and YHVH claims that he does, are we worshipping the same God? And if we are not worshipping the same God then.... Annie
	14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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AnnieTwo Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 14 June 2006 at 10:55am
	*Originally posted by bmzsp* Zulqarnain, Jesus came into this world with the following prime message: "You shall worship only your One God and you shall worship that One God with all your hearts, your minds and your souls." (My quote showing the key message) So this is what the Jews and Christians do. This is not the reason Jesus came into this world. He came primarily to bring in the Kingdom of God which included the forgiveness of sins. The entire Law and the Universe revolve around this. Jesus did not come here to carry people's sins or anybody's sins. That is not what he taught himself openly and that was never his line of teaching. He did and you can find the passages where he said it. "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). The philosophy of Sin being Wages of Death was introduced by the Church Juniors who became Church Elders later. It has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. No so. Jesus was a prophet and knew the Old Testament Scriptures. He knew the fall of man and the cause and he also knew the cure. Read the Bible carefully and you will not find Jesus teaching or talking anything about the Sin, the First Sin and the Original Sin and that he had to die for our sins or anybody's sin. See above. God Almighty's Mercy and Compassion has been known to the mankind, even before the arrival and exit of Jesus. That Mercy and Compassion extends to everything. You will find this clear verse in Qur'aan. Yes, God has mercy and compassion but he hates sins and none of us can obey him perfectly. "Be holy because I am holy." Man falls too short. We couldn't possibly do enough good works to pay our way to paradise. We needed a savior and God provided. No soul shall bear the burdens of anyone. The already-burdened ones would not want to bear any additional burdens of their own kids, family and relatives. They will say,"I am already burdened, don't you see I am so over-loaded! You go and carry your own!". We all are responsible for our own sins.
	14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:07am
	*Originally posted by AnnieTwo* Aren't we getting into the territory of which God are we speaking of? The one who lives on "Main Street" or the one who lives on "State Street?" How can Muslims claim to love or believe in Jesus as their beloved prophet when rejecting him as Messiah? The "son of God" as understood in first century Judaism was another title for the Messiah. Didn't Jesus say that unless we believe that he is the Messiah, we will die in our sins? If Allah says he doesn't have "sons" and YHVH claims that he does, are we worshipping the same God? And if we are not worshipping the same God then.... Annie As far as I have learned, the Muslims do accept Jesus as the Messiah. Just not the Son of God, but a miraculous creation of God. They reject the notion that God needs a Son or that there is Salvation through a sacrifice by Proxy. The Messiah as in the Jewish Messiah was not the same as we Christians define the Messiah. But, Jesus is the Messiah in both Islam and Christianity with different definitions of what that means. They believe in Jesus, but deny his Divine Sonship. It comes down to trusting in Scriptures written between 20-100 years after the death and resurrection. Proof will come in time... Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Both the Muslims and the Christians believe Christ will return. We must have faith that when he does, he will put to rest any false teachings done in his name.
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AnnieTwo Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:42am
	*Originally posted by DavidC* Matt. 12:31 And so I tell you, every human sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Matt. 12:32 And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next. Matt. 12:33 ¶ ‘Make a tree sound and its fruit will be sound; make a tree rotten and its fruit will be rotten. For the tree can be told by its fruit. Matt. 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can your speech be good when you are evil? For words flow out of what fills the heart. Matt. 12:35 Good people draw good things from their store of goodness; bad people draw bad things from their store of badness. # # # Luke 12:10 ¶ ‘Everyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but no one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven. Luke 6:43 ¶ ‘There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit. Luke 6:44 Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles. Luke 6:45 Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart. # # # Mark 3:28 ¶ ‘In truth I tell you, all human sins will be forgiven, and all the blasphemies ever uttered; Mark 3:29 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’ David, You might get something out of this article. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html It is why I disagreed with you. Annie
	14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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