IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.

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AnnieTwo

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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 11:57am

Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by DavidC

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

But what do you do when people deny that Jesus died much less rose from the dead? What will God do?

Jesus said disbelief in the Son could be forgiven as long as people cleave to the Will of God (the Holy Spirit). I think most good Muslims probably satisfy this requirement.

EXACTLY! People spend too much time saying this or that group are going to Hell for disbelief. Its all up to God whom he decides is worthy of heaven and who isn't.

Dear Angela, I am on a roll. I disagree with you too.

I do agree with you that "people" have no right to say who will be saved and that is up to God, but I believe that Jesus taught that it was only through him that anyone can be saved. I think he made that quite clear. And he made it quite clear what we were supposed to do, follow him, obey him, etc.

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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DavidC

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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:38pm

Matt. 12:31 And so I tell you, every human sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matt. 12:32 And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.
Matt. 12:33 ¶ ‘Make a tree sound and its fruit will be sound; make a tree rotten and its fruit will be rotten. For the tree can be told by its fruit.
Matt. 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can your speech be good when you are evil? For words flow out of what fills the heart.
Matt. 12:35 Good people draw good things from their store of goodness; bad people draw bad things from their store of badness.

# # #
Luke 12:10 ¶ ‘Everyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but no one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven.
Luke 6:43 ¶ ‘There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit.
Luke 6:44 Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles.
Luke 6:45 Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart.
# # #

Mark 3:28 ¶ ‘In truth I tell you, all human sins will be forgiven, and all the blasphemies ever uttered;
Mark 3:29 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’

David C.

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Angela
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:54pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Dear Angela, I am on a roll. I disagree with you too.

And that is your right to disagree. I base my belief not on scripture written by the hand of men (inspired or not) but on a basic common sense. There has to be another path to Heaven or else millions who lived and died before Christ, after Christ and now who do not hear the word will parish with no hope. There has to be more than just Christ. I cannot believe that 4 billions of the worlds inhabitants will perish in eternal fire. God is loving and we are all his children. The "Our Way is the Only Way" is what drove me away from religion in the first place.

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AnnieTwo

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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:40pm

Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

Dear Angela, I am on a roll. I disagree with you too.

[/QUOTE]

And I base my opinion on Scripture and not on "common sense." Common sense is really man's common sense. That does not mean it is God's view.

The righteous people who died before Messiah Jesus were saved by Messiah Jesus.

God has to have some sort of a plan for those who have never heard of Jesus, but those are getting fewer and fewer.

If someone rejects God's salvation after understanding it, then it is at their own peril.

Angela, it is not up to you to decide, it is only up to God. He has provided the way.

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Angela
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:51pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo

And I base my opinion on Scripture and not on "common sense." Common sense is really man's common sense. That does not mean it is God's view.

The Bible has been in the hands of "mankind" for 2,000 years. There is always the possibility there are missing parts. Jesus said their are others not of this flock...

The righteous people who died before Messiah Jesus were saved by Messiah Jesus.

Are you so sure? If they didn't accept Christ, then how are they saved through him....as far as my knowledge goes, we're the only ones who believe in redemption for the dead.

God has to have some sort of a plan for those who have never heard of Jesus, but those are getting fewer and fewer.

Hearing the name and understanding the message are two different things. I have a friend in Russia who grew up under Communism. She knows the name Jesus Christ, but she knows and could know nothing else. Now in her adulthood and with her culture, she has no concept of the True and Living Christ. Only a few pictures on the walls of long empty churches after 75 years of State imposed atheism. Things are improving, but just hearing of Jesus does not mean the person got the "message". Same with People exposed to Islam. They may know who Muhammed is supposed to be, but was it presented to them in a way that allowed of a concious acceptance or rejection. If from the very beginning you are taught false prophet, false teachings, false doctrine, chances are, you aren't going to look any further.

If someone rejects God's salvation after understanding it, then it is at their own peril.

This is exactly it....they have to understand it to truly reject it. So again, there has to be another way....

Angela, it is not up to you to decide, it is only up to God. He has provided the way.

He has provided ways...I don't think he's provided only one. DavidC showed you in scripture where rejection of the Son does not mean you're going to hell.

Annie

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DavidC

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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:01pm

But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation.

I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation.

And the discussion is wandering off topic...

David C.

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Angela
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:15pm

Originally posted by DavidC

But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation.

I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation.

And the discussion is wandering off topic...

Not necessarily. If the topic is Jesus did not die for our sins, a fundamental part of that is who receives the Salvation and who doesn't.

If you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do good deeds, then salvation can be had. But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere. You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven. Therefore, in my mind, you can't be a good person and do good works and go to hell just for not accepting Christ.

The question is when Christ died. Was it to erase sins or to conquer death (given death being the result of the Original Sin)?

Are my sins erased just by his death, or by my own repentance and works?

What about those Muslims who pray to God 5 times a day and ask forgiveness for their sins? Would go not accept their repentance just because they claim Jesus as their beloved Prophet and not God's Son?

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Patty

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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 6:13pm

This is what I believe qualifies as "common sense", and is a great part of my religion as a Catholic. It shows the immense mercy of God toward ALL mankind, and is one of many reasons why I am Catholic.

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*)

God's Peace.

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.

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Topic: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.
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Author	Message
AnnieTwo Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 11:57am
	*Originally posted by Angela* *Originally posted by DavidC* *Originally posted by AnnieTwo* But what do you do when people deny that Jesus died much less rose from the dead? What will God do? Jesus said disbelief in the Son could be forgiven as long as people cleave to the Will of God (the Holy Spirit). I think most good Muslims probably satisfy this requirement. EXACTLY! People spend too much time saying this or that group are going to Hell for disbelief. Its all up to God whom he decides is worthy of heaven and who isn't. Dear Angela, I am on a roll. I disagree with you too. I do agree with you that "people" have no right to say who will be saved and that is up to God, but I believe that Jesus taught that it was only through him that anyone can be saved. I think he made that quite clear. And he made it quite clear what we were supposed to do, follow him, obey him, etc. Annie
	14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
	IP Logged

DavidC Senior Member Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2211	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:38pm
	Matt. 12:31 And so I tell you, every human sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Matt. 12:32 And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next. Matt. 12:33 ¶ ‘Make a tree sound and its fruit will be sound; make a tree rotten and its fruit will be rotten. For the tree can be told by its fruit. Matt. 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can your speech be good when you are evil? For words flow out of what fills the heart. Matt. 12:35 Good people draw good things from their store of goodness; bad people draw bad things from their store of badness. # # # Luke 12:10 ¶ ‘Everyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but no one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven. Luke 6:43 ¶ ‘There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit. Luke 6:44 Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles. Luke 6:45 Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart. # # # Mark 3:28 ¶ ‘In truth I tell you, all human sins will be forgiven, and all the blasphemies ever uttered; Mark 3:29 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’
	David C.
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Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:54pm
	*Originally posted by AnnieTwo* Dear Angela, I am on a roll. I disagree with you too. I do agree with you that "people" have no right to say who will be saved and that is up to God, but I believe that Jesus taught that it was only through him that anyone can be saved. I think he made that quite clear. And he made it quite clear what we were supposed to do, follow him, obey him, etc. Annie [/QUOTE] And that is your right to disagree. I base my belief not on scripture written by the hand of men (inspired or not) but on a basic common sense. There has to be another path to Heaven or else millions who lived and died before Christ, after Christ and now who do not hear the word will parish with no hope. There has to be more than just Christ. I cannot believe that 4 billions of the worlds inhabitants will perish in eternal fire. God is loving and we are all his children. The "Our Way is the Only Way" is what drove me away from religion in the first place.
	IP Logged

AnnieTwo Senior Member Joined: 26 May 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 281	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:40pm
	*Originally posted by Angela* *Originally posted by AnnieTwo* Dear Angela, I am on a roll. I disagree with you too. I do agree with you that "people" have no right to say who will be saved and that is up to God, but I believe that Jesus taught that it was only through him that anyone can be saved. I think he made that quite clear. And he made it quite clear what we were supposed to do, follow him, obey him, etc. Annie And that is your right to disagree. I base my belief not on scripture written by the hand of men (inspired or not) but on a basic common sense. There has to be another path to Heaven or else millions who lived and died before Christ, after Christ and now who do not hear the word will parish with no hope. There has to be more than just Christ. I cannot believe that 4 billions of the worlds inhabitants will perish in eternal fire. God is loving and we are all his children. The "Our Way is the Only Way" is what drove me away from religion in the first place. [/QUOTE] And I base my opinion on Scripture and not on "common sense." Common sense is really man's common sense. That does not mean it is God's view. The righteous people who died before Messiah Jesus were saved by Messiah Jesus. God has to have some sort of a plan for those who have never heard of Jesus, but those are getting fewer and fewer. If someone rejects God's salvation after understanding it, then it is at their own peril. Angela, it is not up to you to decide, it is only up to God. He has provided the way. Annie
	14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4
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Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:51pm
	*Originally posted by AnnieTwo* And I base my opinion on Scripture and not on "common sense." Common sense is really man's common sense. That does not mean it is God's view. The Bible has been in the hands of "mankind" for 2,000 years. There is always the possibility there are missing parts. Jesus said their are others not of this flock... The righteous people who died before Messiah Jesus were saved by Messiah Jesus. Are you so sure? If they didn't accept Christ, then how are they saved through him....as far as my knowledge goes, we're the only ones who believe in redemption for the dead. God has to have some sort of a plan for those who have never heard of Jesus, but those are getting fewer and fewer. Hearing the name and understanding the message are two different things. I have a friend in Russia who grew up under Communism. She knows the name Jesus Christ, but she knows and could know nothing else. Now in her adulthood and with her culture, she has no concept of the True and Living Christ. Only a few pictures on the walls of long empty churches after 75 years of State imposed atheism. Things are improving, but just hearing of Jesus does not mean the person got the "message". Same with People exposed to Islam. They may know who Muhammed is supposed to be, but was it presented to them in a way that allowed of a concious acceptance or rejection. If from the very beginning you are taught false prophet, false teachings, false doctrine, chances are, you aren't going to look any further. If someone rejects God's salvation after understanding it, then it is at their own peril. This is exactly it....they have to understand it to truly reject it. So again, there has to be another way.... Angela, it is not up to you to decide, it is only up to God. He has provided the way. He has provided ways...I don't think he's provided only one. DavidC showed you in scripture where rejection of the Son does not mean you're going to hell. Annie
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DavidC Senior Member Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2211	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:01pm
	But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation. I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation. And the discussion is wandering off topic...
	David C.
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Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:15pm
	*Originally posted by DavidC* But if you DO believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have a firm guarantee of salvation. I'm not going to say anyone is condemned if they chose a different faith, but I do believe Christianity is the only faith that GUARANTEES salvation. And the discussion is wandering off topic... Not necessarily. If the topic is Jesus did not die for our sins, a fundamental part of that is who receives the Salvation and who doesn't. If you believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and do good deeds, then salvation can be had. But just believing and not doing anything about it, isn't getting you anywhere. You can't claim Christ as your redeemer and live in sin and expect Heaven. Therefore, in my mind, you can't be a good person and do good works and go to hell just for not accepting Christ. The question is when Christ died. Was it to erase sins or to conquer death (given death being the result of the Original Sin)? Are my sins erased just by his death, or by my own repentance and works? What about those Muslims who pray to God 5 times a day and ask forgiveness for their sins? Would go not accept their repentance just because they claim Jesus as their beloved Prophet and not God's Son?
	IP Logged

Patty Senior Member Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2382	Posted: 13 June 2006 at 6:13pm
	This is what I believe qualifies as "common sense", and is a great part of my religion as a Catholic. It shows the immense mercy of God toward ALL mankind, and is one of many reasons why I am Catholic. "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.* Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20) God's Peace.
	Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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