IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.

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Angel

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Posted: 18 December 2006 at 6:32am

Originally posted by ChristianLady

If the Bible was to you. You would understand it like 2.6 billion christians do in the world.

I'm guessing this it is also for other non christians?

2.6 billion Christians understand the bible ?? wow Why don't I believe that?

Where did i ever state non christians or Muslims cannot read the Bible? Never did I say that. I said the Bible is not to you. Meaning at this time you are not able to understand the Bible because you have not the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible. I never said you could not sit down and read it in fact I have said for you to do that.

What is the point in reading it then ?

Do you have to be in a particular religion to study and to know religion or become a scholar ? my answer is no.

There is a reason Jesus spoke in parables. Because the parables would be understood by those who had the Holy Spirit but to those who did not they were confused by the parables.

Where does it say that you have to have the holy Spirit to understand?

[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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ChristianLady

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Posted: 18 December 2006 at 6:45am

NOW read the 17th verse it says very clearly THE WORLD cannot recieve because it seeth him NOT. neither Knoweth him BUT YE KNOW HIM for he dwelleth with you and shall be IN you. This was written to the christians. The christians know the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit dwells within the christian and it even says THE WORLD Cannot recieve him, because the Holy spirit is just that a SPIRIT and know one can see a Spirit. Those who are not christians are blinded to truth until they recieve Jesus as their Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within them.

Christian Lady

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BMZ

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Posted: 18 December 2006 at 6:48am

Angel,

"Where does it say that you have to have the holy Spirit to understand? "

I have always avoided but Tu quoque seems to be the right answer and works best, no matter how much it is disliked!

The Good Book doesn't exactly say anything like that but it does say something like this: "Let he who has ears, hear; let he who has eyes, see and let he who has a brain, understand."

Best Regards

BMZ

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Angel

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Posted: 18 December 2006 at 7:05am

p.s: I know about alcohol sorry for not deleting the sentence.

Originally posted by ChristianLady

And if you had read my statement I never said it was not for people to read (meaning the Bible). But they will never understand it because it is the Holy SPirit that gives the guidance.

Christianlady, i'm wondering if you had read my post, i was going on about understanding just as you were please re-read

Read John 14 about the comforter and why it was coming. It even states you will not understand. I love how people twist what I say in here. Angel they are not christians the holy spirit was to the christians and the bible makes that very clear.

well, i'm not exactly Christian but I do know about the comforter being the Holy Spirit - I understand that /the verse, but I guess you missed that when I mentioned some pages back I looked into it some weeks ago and had a small discussion with another person before you come.

The verses of John, you might else well say Jesus as it is Jesus talking, but the problem is that NO ONE was called a Christian during Jesus time. the name christian came later and as we have that mentioned here elsewhere. Jesus was a jew until he started his teachings and there is no where, well i haven't come across anything that jesus stated who or what he is, other than one in believing in God.

Why is Christians left out from THE WORLD ?

[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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Angel

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Posted: 18 December 2006 at 7:26am

Originally posted by ChristianLady

bmzsp

You're comments >>>

Getting or seen prophecies fulfilled has nothing to do with belief in God. There have been thousands of people who have done that and continue to do so. To me, the prophecies and the stuff are junk.

Really? For me they do because prophecies to me prove who is telling the truth or not. If someone claims something and it does not come true then that person is not telling the truth.

That is not always true.

But many of the Bible prophecies have come true already and some are even coming true now as we speak to each other on this forum.

And i wonder how much of it is self fulfilling.

Hmmm seems alot of wars are happening and even scientist have said in the last 100 yrs earthquakes and natural disasters have increased more then ever in history.

how far back are these so called scientist going back?

It's not a secret that there are periods of ups and downs, at the moment we are in a period of up, increase of.

Many prophets are alive today in the churches and they prophecy accurate things.

What prophets??

[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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Angel

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Posted: 18 December 2006 at 8:18am

Originally posted by BMZSP

Lady,

Sarah was an old woman and knew there was no way she could have a child. It was she who asked Abraham to take Hagar and sleep with her.

Later Sarah became jealous and laid the blame on Abraham and father Abraham said,"Your servant is in your hands. Do with her what you think best."

Lady, you are looking at that from a woman's point of view, while I am looking at it from a father's point of view. The two children were not the same in the eyes of Sarah for she was a jealous woman. For her, Ismaeel was the step son. But for Abraham they were no half or quarter sons. Both were his sons. You have to look through father Abraham's eyes, not through the jealous Sarah's eyes.

The Bible confirms that Ismaeel was born when Abraham was 86 and he was 100 when Issac was born. Ismaeel was thus 14 years older than Issac.

Christianlady, bmz is more correct about Sarah and Hagar. And about the sons.

Originally posted by ChristianLady

Well tell me Bmzsp would you not be jealous if you're spouse was with another person ? I sure would be jealous.

I believe her jealously was for something else, not the fact that her husband was with another person. I believe the jealous come through because of the child, seeing her husband, Abraham with ismael and the interaction with and its natural to pay attention to the mother of the child who the child is always with. And I mean not in sexual intimate ways.

And besides Sarah should not be all that jealous for what she initiated and agreed to, So that Abraham can have a son because Sarah was passed being able to bear kids. It was somewhat amicable on sarah to let her husband

I would never share my husband with another woman. Why should I?

But Sarah did!

I go by what the Bible says

And so is bmz

I just believe God is much bigger then that.

funny so does bmz

You have to look through BOTH parents it takes both parents to make a baby not just the father. The father is not the soul contributor to life. See I think you know that if you only look at Abraham then it was the brethern and if you look at BOTH parents then you know I am telling the truth Hagar had a different blood line than Sarah and Abraham and ishmael and isaac actually are only half brothers and would not get what Isaac would. I know truth can hurt sometimes Bmzsp

what truth, we ALL know that

But you don't get it, yes both sons had 2 diferent mothers, yes they are half brothers BUT they had the SAME father it makes them included into the same brethren, despite ismael going his way, beign a wild man and getting his own tribes. NONE of what you say still does not take away the fact that ismael belongs to the same brethren. You keep saying that ismael does not belong to the same brethren is actually deny him his father Abraham and that is not fair. Abraham loved his sons, and both sons were there on his deathbed, Abraham waited so both his sons were by his side at the same time. Yes isaac was full blood between sarah and abraham, yes the convent went to isaac and not to ismael, no one's denies that, yes there was things that were/had to be. Both sons are of the abrahamic line.

Some think Ishamel was born first and others believe Isaac was born first

the matter fact is that ishamel was born first then isaac, EVERYONE knows that Hagar born a son for Abraham, because sarah couldn't, Sarah agreed and initiate it. What people dispute is that because Abraham was married to Sarah and not Hagar, its suppose to be isaac first, PEOPLE forget what was, all this dispute came later when only married people had legimate kids, the institution of the church created this.

Infact you can say that isaac was first born - to sarah and abraham but isaac is second born son to Abraham.

[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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Angel

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Posted: 18 December 2006 at 8:55am

Originally posted by ChristianLady

This is about the holy spirit or comforter not about understanding the bible. It says nothing about needing the holy spirit to reveal understanding of the bible.

[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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Hayfa
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Posted: 18 December 2006 at 9:57am

ping.... ping...

How do then Jews be able to "understand" based upon their birth? How does this work? They certainly do not believe in Jesus as the messiah.. so then they do not believe in the message of Jesus.. correct. So how can they be able to "understand?" and not Moslems?

Christian Lady It bothers me that you can think that I cannot be connected / understand God / Allah / The Divine / The Source of Life. Who are YOU to think that? Is that not arrogance? At least Islam recognizes that there have been many prophets sent to all lands. And NO one can know what is in another's heart.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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Topic: Jesus Christ did not die for our sins.
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Author	Message
Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6626	Posted: 18 December 2006 at 6:32am
	*Originally posted by ChristianLady* If the Bible was to you. You would understand it like 2.6 billion christians do in the world. I'm guessing this it is also for other non christians? 2.6 billion Christians understand the bible ?? wow Why don't I believe that? Where did i ever state non christians or Muslims cannot read the Bible? Never did I say that. I said the Bible is not to you. Meaning at this time you are not able to understand the Bible because you have not the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible. I never said you could not sit down and read it in fact I have said for you to do that. What is the point in reading it then ? Do you have to be in a particular religion to study and to know religion or become a scholar ? my answer is no. There is a reason Jesus spoke in parables. Because the parables would be understood by those who had the Holy Spirit but to those who did not they were confused by the parables. Where does it say that you have to have the holy Spirit to understand?
	[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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ChristianLady Groupie Joined: 08 December 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 50	Posted: 18 December 2006 at 6:45am
	NOW read the 17th verse it says very clearly THE WORLD cannot recieve because it seeth him NOT. neither Knoweth him BUT YE KNOW HIM for he dwelleth with you and shall be IN you. This was written to the christians. The christians know the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit dwells within the christian and it even says THE WORLD Cannot recieve him, because the Holy spirit is just that a SPIRIT and know one can see a Spirit. Those who are not christians are blinded to truth until they recieve Jesus as their Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within them.
	Christian Lady
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BMZ Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1852	Posted: 18 December 2006 at 6:48am
	Angel, "Where does it say that you have to have the holy Spirit to understand? " I have always avoided but Tu quoque seems to be the right answer and works best, no matter how much it is disliked! The Good Book doesn't exactly say anything like that but it does say something like this: "Let he who has ears, hear; let he who has eyes, see and let he who has a brain, understand." Best Regards BMZ
	IP Logged

Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6626	Posted: 18 December 2006 at 7:05am
	p.s: I know about alcohol sorry for not deleting the sentence. *Originally posted by ChristianLady* And if you had read my statement I never said it was not for people to read (meaning the Bible). But they will never understand it because it is the Holy SPirit that gives the guidance. Christianlady, i'm wondering if you had read my post, i was going on about understanding just as you were please re-read Read John 14 about the comforter and why it was coming. It even states you will not understand. I love how people twist what I say in here. Angel they are not christians the holy spirit was to the christians and the bible makes that very clear. well, i'm not exactly Christian but I do know about the comforter being the Holy Spirit - I understand that /the verse, but I guess you missed that when I mentioned some pages back I looked into it some weeks ago and had a small discussion with another person before you come. NOW read the 17th verse it says very clearly THE WORLD cannot recieve because it seeth him NOT. neither Knoweth him BUT YE KNOW HIM for he dwelleth with you and shall be IN you. This was written to the christians. The christians know the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit dwells within the christian and it even says THE WORLD Cannot recieve him, because the Holy spirit is just that a SPIRIT and know one can see a Spirit. Those who are not christians are blinded to truth until they recieve Jesus as their Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within them. The verses of John, you might else well say Jesus as it is Jesus talking, but the problem is that NO ONE was called a Christian during Jesus time. the name christian came later and as we have that mentioned here elsewhere. Jesus was a jew until he started his teachings and there is no where, well i haven't come across anything that jesus stated who or what he is, other than one in believing in God. Why is Christians left out from THE WORLD ?
	[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
	IP Logged

Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6626	Posted: 18 December 2006 at 7:26am
	*Originally posted by ChristianLady* bmzsp You're comments >>> Getting or seen prophecies fulfilled has nothing to do with belief in God. There have been thousands of people who have done that and continue to do so. To me, the prophecies and the stuff are junk. Really? For me they do because prophecies to me prove who is telling the truth or not. If someone claims something and it does not come true then that person is not telling the truth. That is not always true. But many of the Bible prophecies have come true already and some are even coming true now as we speak to each other on this forum. And i wonder how much of it is self fulfilling. Hmmm seems alot of wars are happening and even scientist have said in the last 100 yrs earthquakes and natural disasters have increased more then ever in history. how far back are these so called scientist going back? It's not a secret that there are periods of ups and downs, at the moment we are in a period of up, increase of. Many prophets are alive today in the churches and they prophecy accurate things. What prophets??
	[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
	IP Logged

Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6626	Posted: 18 December 2006 at 8:18am
	*Originally posted by BMZSP* Lady, Sarah was an old woman and knew there was no way she could have a child. It was she who asked Abraham to take Hagar and sleep with her. Later Sarah became jealous and laid the blame on Abraham and father Abraham said,"Your servant is in your hands. Do with her what you think best." Lady, you are looking at that from a woman's point of view, while I am looking at it from a father's point of view. The two children were not the same in the eyes of Sarah for she was a jealous woman. For her, Ismaeel was the step son. But for Abraham they were no half or quarter sons. Both were his sons. You have to look through father Abraham's eyes, not through the jealous Sarah's eyes. The Bible confirms that Ismaeel was born when Abraham was 86 and he was 100 when Issac was born. Ismaeel was thus 14 years older than Issac. Christianlady, bmz is more correct about Sarah and Hagar. And about the sons. *Originally posted by ChristianLady* Well tell me Bmzsp would you not be jealous if you're spouse was with another person ? I sure would be jealous. I believe her jealously was for something else, not the fact that her husband was with another person. I believe the jealous come through because of the child, seeing her husband, Abraham with ismael and the interaction with and its natural to pay attention to the mother of the child who the child is always with. And I mean not in sexual intimate ways. And besides Sarah should not be all that jealous for what she initiated and agreed to, So that Abraham can have a son because Sarah was passed being able to bear kids. It was somewhat amicable on sarah to let her husband I would never share my husband with another woman. Why should I? But Sarah did! I go by what the Bible says And so is bmz I just believe God is much bigger then that. funny so does bmz You have to look through BOTH parents it takes both parents to make a baby not just the father. The father is not the soul contributor to life. See I think you know that if you only look at Abraham then it was the brethern and if you look at BOTH parents then you know I am telling the truth Hagar had a different blood line than Sarah and Abraham and ishmael and isaac actually are only half brothers and would not get what Isaac would. I know truth can hurt sometimes Bmzsp what truth, we ALL know that But you don't get it, yes both sons had 2 diferent mothers, yes they are half brothers BUT they had the SAME father it makes them included into the same brethren, despite ismael going his way, beign a wild man and getting his own tribes. NONE of what you say still does not take away the fact that ismael belongs to the same brethren. You keep saying that ismael does not belong to the same brethren is actually deny him his father Abraham and that is not fair. Abraham loved his sons, and both sons were there on his deathbed, Abraham waited so both his sons were by his side at the same time. Yes isaac was full blood between sarah and abraham, yes the convent went to isaac and not to ismael, no one's denies that, yes there was things that were/had to be. Both sons are of the abrahamic line. Some think Ishamel was born first and others believe Isaac was born first the matter fact is that ishamel was born first then isaac, EVERYONE knows that Hagar born a son for Abraham, because sarah couldn't, Sarah agreed and initiate it. What people dispute is that because Abraham was married to Sarah and not Hagar, its suppose to be isaac first, PEOPLE forget what was, all this dispute came later when only married people had legimate kids, the institution of the church created this. Infact you can say that isaac was first born - to sarah and abraham but isaac is second born son to Abraham.
	[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6626	Posted: 18 December 2006 at 8:55am
	*Originally posted by ChristianLady* NOW read the 17th verse it says very clearly THE WORLD cannot recieve because it seeth him NOT. neither Knoweth him BUT YE KNOW HIM for he dwelleth with you and shall be IN you. This was written to the christians. The christians know the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit dwells within the christian and it even says THE WORLD Cannot recieve him, because the Holy spirit is just that a SPIRIT and know one can see a Spirit. Those who are not christians are blinded to truth until they recieve Jesus as their Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within them. This is about the holy spirit or comforter not about understanding the bible. It says nothing about needing the holy spirit to reveal understanding of the bible.
	[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 18 December 2006 at 9:57am
	ping.... ping... How do then Jews be able to "understand" based upon their birth? How does this work? They certainly do not believe in Jesus as the messiah.. so then they do not believe in the message of Jesus.. correct. So how can they be able to "understand?" and not Moslems? Christian Lady It bothers me that you can think that I cannot be connected / understand God / Allah / The Divine / The Source of Life. Who are YOU to think that? Is that not arrogance? At least Islam recognizes that there have been many prophets sent to all lands. And NO one can know what is in another's heart.
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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