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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2006 at 2:24pm

Annie wrote:

"What would you expect a Jew to say?

Interesting that Muslims would go to the Jews for a "correct" interpretation when the Qur'an says that the Jews were messing around with their interpretations of scriptures.  So, why would a Muslim trust the Jews for correct interpretations of their scriptures today?

One of the main complaints from the Jews is that they believe that Jesus was unfit to be a prophet because Jesus broke the law which is something I have never heard a Muslim accuse him of.

Annie"

Well, I would expect a Jew to say that they understand their own religion. What would you expect them to say, or rather, what do you expect them to say when you go to them for interpretation? You did say that you do that, didn't you?

Personally, I would think that if you are a student of religion, then you should go to the source of the belief. That does not mean you agree with that belief, or think it is correct, just that you want to be as authentic as possible.

I thought that the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because he didn't fit any of the criteria: (direct from some Jews)

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:


A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation" neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will being over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9)

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies. Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of Messiah

1. MESSIAH AS PROPHET
Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

2. DESCENDENT OF DAVID
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

3. TORAH OBSERVANCE
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable.

4. MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

5. VIRGIN BIRTH
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

6. CRUCIFIXION
The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

7. SUFFERING SERVANT
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant." In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun. Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus. From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."



Edited by Mishmish
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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AnnieTwo
 
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:33pm
Mishmish,

Personally, I would think that if you are a student of religion, then you should go to the source of the belief. That does not mean you agree with that belief, or think it is correct, just that you want to be as authentic as possible.

And that is what I do.  I go to the source.  Just as I go to the source in Islam.

I thought that the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because he didn't fit any of the criteria: (direct from some Jews)

This is correct and it is not correct.  There was no definitive view of what the Messiah would be in first century Judaism and there was a belief that the Messiah would be divine.

The Jews were looking for a warrior Messiah, someone who weilded a sword, but that was not the kind of Messiah that Jesus was or that God wanted.  Jesus was the direct opposite.  He did not have a bloody sword.  His message was one of peace, turning the other cheek, going the extra mile.  He defeated the Romans and all other pagan religions by claiming that there was only one God and that one God was the only God there is.  And that Jesus was God's Messiah, the one who was to come and defeat the world, which he did by dying on the cross for your sins and for mine.

I would never put my salvation in the hands of today's Jews.

Annie




14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:13pm
Those are a confusing bunch of criteria. 

Several argue against themselves.  Take the "Son of David" one.  OK, Jesus was born of a virgin.  But Jews don't believe that, so how do they use it as an argument?  The argument is absurd - they believe in the virgin birth only to disprove Jesus' prophethood, then disbelieve it for anything else.

I've got to class them as sophistry.


David C.
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Patty
 
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Quote Patty Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2006 at 5:08pm

Mishmish, one of my scholarly "hobbies" is studying Jewish antiquities.  I think you would enjoy reading some of Flavius Josephus' works.  He was Jewish, born just four years after the death of Jesus.  Josephus was born Joseph ben Mattathias in Jerusalem in 37CE.  Briefly, he was a priest, soldier, and scholar.  Here is a brief statement he made regarding Jesus (he first wrote in Aramaic, but later his more detailed works were written in Greek, the most well-known language of the day:)

Josephus' Account of Jesus 

The Testimonium Flavianum 

    Do the Christian gospels record actual events during the First Century A.D./ C.E., or are they the ecstatic visions of a small religious group? 

    There are no surviving Roman records of the First Century that refer to, nor are there any Jewish records that support the accounts in the Christian gospels --- except one

    In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account: 
 

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.  For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had  first come to love him did not cease.  He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.  And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
                                   - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3
63  

Josephus subsequently improved his language skills and undertook a massive work in Greek explaining the history of the Jews to the general non-Jewish audience. He emphasized that the Jewish culture and Bible were older than any other then existing, hence called his work the Jewish Antiquities. Approximately half the work is a rephrasing of the Hebrew Bible, while much of the rest draws on previous historians. This work was published in 93 or 94 CE, when he was about 56 years old. 

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/life.htm

It is quite interesting to study the very early writings.  Others may find it a bit boring, but if anyone has an interest in them, the link is posted above.

God's Peace.

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2006 at 7:47pm

Well, I have noticed that the New Testament lists Jesus geneology through Joseph, who could not have been his father, back to King David. I have asked why this is, but no one answers my question.

Since it was written that the Messiah was to be related to King David through his father, if Mary was a virgin, wouldn't that automatically disqualify Jesus as the Messiah?

I assume they use it as an arguement because Christians believe it. You can't really have it both ways. Either Jesus was born to a virgin and is not related to King David through his father, or he was not and is related to King David through his father, who may or may not be Joseph.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2006 at 7:49pm

"I would never put my salvation in the hands of today's Jews.'

The Jews might feel the same way...

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Mishmish

Well, I have noticed that the New Testament lists Jesus geneology through Joseph, who could not have been his father, back to King David. I have asked why this is, but no one answers my question.

Since it was written that the Messiah was to be related to King David through his father, if Mary was a virgin, wouldn't that automatically disqualify Jesus as the Messiah?

I assume they use it as an arguement because Christians believe it. You can't really have it both ways. Either Jesus was born to a virgin and is not related to King David through his father, or he was not and is related to King David through his father, who may or may not be Joseph.

Actually Mishmish, Mary too was a descendent of David.  Mary's Father, Joachim or Eliakim (Eli) was a descendent of David.  And at the age of three, her father and mother Anne dedicated her to the Temple.

The Quran states she is the sister of Aaron, meaning she was descended from the line of Prophets.

019.028
YUSUFALI: "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

So, Joseph was assigned as caregiver and husband to Mary, he was not the mortal father of Jesus. 

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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:08pm
But the Bible still lists the geneology through Joseph.
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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