Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: A question Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 9 Next >>
Author Message
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 7:56am

Annie,

Let me put this way. There are two Scriptures almost the same:

1. The Holy Scriptures of the Jews or call it The Jewish Bible 

2. The Old Testament of the Christians or call it the OT of the Christian Bible.

Which one do I choose as an outsider? Of course #1.

Please note that the Jews do not recognise the OT in the Christian Bible.

This is the problem. I cannot accept that the Christian scholars interpreted the Jewish Scriptures better than the Jews who had them centuries ago.

There are lots of changes made in the words and meanings. I have already shown some and it is a common happening in the Christian OT.

In the mean time, I will try to find comments from Jewish scholars and post.

 

 

 

IP IP Logged
AnnieTwo
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 8:32am

Originally posted by BMZ

Anyway that article has some truth in it. We cannot just discard it so easily. If it were not Irenaeus, it could have been someone that we don't know, but someone did make changes while writing the Christian OT from the Jewish OT.  That is still more factual.

No BMZ, as I said before the Septuagint was translated by Jews and not the Christians, hundreds of years before Christ.  The scriptures were for the Jews, translated by the Jews, for Jews who did not understand Hebrew.  Nobody made changes, BMZ.  Why aren't you understanding this?  It was simply a matter of reading the Hebrew and translating the Hebrew into Greek.

Originally posted by BMZ

From you, Annie: "I have already told you that Irenaeus was not the first or only person to give reasons why there are only 4 gospels and cited several historical sources."

I don't think I asked for that. What I know from the Scripture is that 4 gospels were chosen to represent "the four corners" of the world. Is that right?

No, you are incorrect.  The four gospels chose themselves.  They were the ones that were in constant use before Irenaeus was born.

This is what Irenaeus said.

The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men. From this it is clear that the Word, the artificer of all things, being manifested to men gave us the gospel, fourfold in form but held together by one Spirit. As David said, when asking for his coming, 'O sitter upon the cherubim, show yourself '. For the cherubim have four faces, and their faces are images of the activity of the Son of God. For the first living creature, it says, was like a lion, signifying his active and princely and royal character; the second was like an ox, showing his sacrificial and priestly order; the third had the face of a man, indicating very clearly his coming in human guise; and the fourth was like a flying eagle, making plain the giving of the Spirit who broods over the Church. Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. (3.11.8)

I have already given you other references on the four gospels.  Irenaeus is simply giving a fanciful little analogy.  He had nothing to do with the choosing of them.

Annie

Edited by AnnieTwo
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:04am

Annie,

From you: "No BMZ, as I said before the Septuagint was translated by Jews and not the Christians, hundreds of years before Christ.  The scriptures were for the Jews, translated by the Jews, for Jews who did not understand Hebrew.  Nobody made changes, BMZ.  Why aren't you understanding this?  It was simply a matter of reading the Hebrew and translating the Hebrew into Greek."

Annie, I will present my case in the language of a Primary One student:

The Jewish Scripture: Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"

The Christian OT: Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with the child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

Who is correct? The Jewish Scripture or the Christian OT? I believe the Jewish Scripture is correct here.

The child was never named Immanuel. The mother was supposed to call the child Immanuel but SHE DID NOT!

I know that Immanuel means "God with us" but you, others and I also know that if my name is Immanuel, I am not God with you and others.

Please answer as if you are talking to a child!  

IP IP Logged
AnnieTwo
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:37am

Originally posted by BMZ

Annie,

Let me put this way. There are two Scriptures almost the same:

1. The Holy Scriptures of the Jews or call it The Jewish Bible 

Yes. 

Originally posted by BMZ

2. The Old Testament of the Christians or call it the OT of the Christian Bible.

Which one do I choose as an outsider? Of course #1.

I use both.

Originally posted by BMZ

Please note that the Jews do not recognise the OT in the Christian Bible.

Didn't I already say that?  When I have a question about the meaning of some OT scriptures, I have a Jew that I go to to get some answers.  He will accept the OT scripture and give an answer.  If the OT scripture is not as clear as the Hebrew, he will tell me the difference.  He prefers the Stone edition of the Hebrew and it is not on the Internet as far as I know.

Originally posted by BMZ

This is the problem. I cannot accept that the Christian scholars interpreted the Jewish Scriptures better than the Jews who had them centuries ago.

OK, but you must consider that the Jews of today have a reason why they reject Messiah Jesus.  I think it is in the interpretation and I don't altogether trust their interpretations and I have a good reason.  I can find lots of Jewish scholars who consider many of the prophecies of Messiah that the Christians do.  Over time the Jews seem to have changed their minds.  I like to go back to the Jewish though that is quite old.  I would suggest that you do the same.

Originally posted by BMZ

There are lots of changes made in the words and meanings. I have already shown some and it is a common happening in the Christian OT.

BMZ, please try to understand that it was the Jews who interpreted the Septuagint.  They chose what they considered the right word.  This does not equate into "changes made in the word and meanings."

I'd like to make one additional point.  The Jews who used the Septuagint did not all become Christians.  Think about it.

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

IP IP Logged
AnnieTwo
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:40am
BMZ,



Have I become your new best friend? 

I talk to you so much I don't have time to talk to anyone else.

I'm not complaining, it is interesting.


Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

IP IP Logged
AnnieTwo
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:44am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

From you: "No BMZ, as I said before the Septuagint was translated by Jews and not the Christians, hundreds of years before Christ.  The scriptures were for the Jews, translated by the Jews, for Jews who did not understand Hebrew.  Nobody made changes, BMZ.  Why aren't you understanding this?  It was simply a matter of reading the Hebrew and translating the Hebrew into Greek."

Annie, I will present my case in the language of a Primary One student:

The Jewish Scripture: Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"

The Christian OT: Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with the child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

Who is correct? The Jewish Scripture or the Christian OT? I believe the Jewish Scripture is correct here.

The child was never named Immanuel. The mother was supposed to call the child Immanuel but SHE DID NOT!

I know that Immanuel means "God with us" but you, others and I also know that if my name is Immanuel, I am not God with you and others.

Please answer as if you are talking to a child!  



BMZ,

This subject has been covered on at least two topics.

Annie

PS:  I will try to get something for you.  It might be a link to the answer and you are just going to have to live with it.
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:55am

Annie,

From you: "Didn't I already say that?  When I have a question about the meaning of some OT scriptures, I have a Jew that I go to to get some answers.  He will accept the OT scripture and give an answer.  If the OT scripture is not as clear as the Hebrew, he will tell me the difference.  He prefers the Stone edition of the Hebrew and it is not on the Internet as far as I know."

Annie, you have got one Jew and I have two Rabbis in the Singapore Synagogues plus a dozen Jewish scholars from the Mennaseh Trust here. I have The Jewish Scriptures in the Masoretic Text right next to my computer and I ask Rabbis on Moses and other Jewishdotcoms.

None of them agrees with your goodself and your Jew, Annie!

Best wishes and Good Night. 

 

IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:59am

 

"BMZ,



Have I become your new best friend? 

I talk to you so much I don't have time to talk to anyone else.

I'm not complaining, it is interesting."

Good exchanges are interesting and challenging, Annie. I wish George were here and it would have been doubly interesting.

George has run away from this site!  Hope this comment will make him come back.

Thanks & Good Night

BMZ

IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 9 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com