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Interfaith Dialogue
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 9:09am

Annie,

My comments are in blue.

Some Jews say that it speaks of the nation of Israel, some other Jews say it refers to a person on behalf of Israel, yet some say it speaks of the Messiah.  Whichever it is still a prophecy and it is a matter of interpretation.

This non-Jew and non-Christian said the same as in the first part of your comment. Jews do not SAY it is talking about Messiah. Check with a Rabbi. It is NO prophecy and there is nothing to interpret there.

BMZ wrote:

Daniel 9 talks about Daniel meditating upon Jeremiah's prophecy and also includes Daniel's confessions of sins.

What is your point?

My point is that too is no prophecy. Daniel, not Jesus, is confessing his own sins or the sins of Israel.

BMZ wrote:

Zechariah 12 talks about Jerusalem a cup of staggering, Jerusalem a stone of burden and then it talks about Restoration of Judah and Repentance of Jerusalem.

What is your point?

My point is still the same. It is not a prophecy and has nothing to do with Jesus or the Messiah. Now, please tell me what is your point in asking me about munclear points?

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AnnieTwo
 
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 9:59am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

You were totally unable to answer or comprehend.   

I knew you will keep on failing to see my point.    Let me add an honest twist here for you. You dig up prophecies looking to justify the coming of Jesus, the forms of Jesus and the nature of Jesus in the Christian OT, which is neither supported by the Jewish Scriptures (Jewish OT) nor the Jews themselves.

I am sure you will be thrusting instead of piercing!  



Oh, but I did comprehend.

Let me put you out of your misery.  Whether a Christian reads the Old Testament in the Greek translated from the Hebrew or the English translated form the Hebrew, they come to the same conclusions about Jesus and the prophecies.

The proof of that is the Messanic Jews.  They read the Old Testament either in English from the Hebrew scriptures or directly from the Hebrew as many of them read and understand Hebrew and they come to the same conclusions that the Christians do.

So your effort to imply that Irenaeus wrote the Septuagint falls flat on its face.  Irenaeus had nothing to do with the writing of the Septuagint as I pointed out to you.

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 10:38am

My apologies in advance for saying this. Annie, you still do not comprehend and I feel sorry for you for instead of putting me out of misery, you are falling deep into misery. .

From you: "Oh, but I did comprehend." No! You did not comprehend at all.

From you, Annie: "Let me put you out of your misery.  Whether a Christian reads the Old Testament in the Greek translated from the Hebrew or the English translated form the Hebrew, they come to the same conclusions about Jesus and the prophecies."

Herein lies the problem. You fail to understand that I am saying that the Christian reads HIS Old Testament, which is attached to the New Testament and that OT is different from the Jewish Scripture from which came the Christian Old Testament. Is this clear now.

Yes, the Jews have their Scripture also translated in English. They have it in the Hebrew also. The Jews do not come to the same conclusions as the Christians. The Jews DO NOT accept the Christian's OT as their Scripture. Period. You may ask Rabbis at some Rabbi.coms or ask Moses.Com or Ask the Rabbi and post here the e-mail that your receive.

From you, Annie: "The proof of that is the Messanic Jews.  They read the Old Testament either in English from the Hebrew scriptures or directly from the Hebrew as many of them read and understand Hebrew and they come to the same conclusions that the Christians do."

Messianic Jews are no Jews, they are simply Christians. That is just a fanciful name given to the Jews who became Christians.   I do not wish to explain what they believe is going to happen and what they stand for. It would not be good for this board and please don't ask me to elaborate. I would rate them as Christians+Jews, which is not really healthy.   They are a dangerous lot! You know well what I mean, so please don't ask. (Hint:Restoration of Jews and Israel at any cost and at the cost of the entire humanity, Planet and the Universe.  )

From you, Annie: "So your effort to imply that Irenaeus wrote the Septuagint falls flat on its face.  Irenaeus had nothing to do with the writing of the Septuagint as I pointed out to you."

There is no talk of who wrote the Septuagint. I never said that Irenaeus had anything to do with the writing of the Septuagint.

You just read again what Theresa A Winters wrote:"Irenaeus was the first person to develop an Old Testament and New Testament that worked together. He was also the first person to cite reasons for admitting or rejecting books into the canon."

Theresa A. Winters, I believe she must be an American Christian, is saying in clear terms that Irenaeus did something to make the two books compatible. He mounted two different wheels on the same axle. can you run that cart? No way!

How did he do that? To find out read some chapters that I recommended. An example: Why was Lord Jesus born without a man father? Answer: Irenaeus, most likely must have reworded Isaiah 7:14 of the Jewish OT to Isaiah 7:14 of the Christian OT.

There it was "A young woman will give birth to a child......" and it was re-written in the Christian OT as "A young virgin will give birth to a child.......", just to use it and justify it as a prophecy for Jesus.

In the Septuagint, there is no young virgin. Are you talking about an Original Septuagint of the Christian OT?

Hope I have made clear that it is not me. You have got to blame Theresa Winters and Arenaeus, please.

Good Night. 





Edited by bmzsp
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:19am
BMZ,

You need to be more careful of your sources.  Do you ever check them out?

I tried to get in touch with the main site that published Thereasa A. Winter's article.   I wanted to ask her what she meant by:  Irenaeus was the first person to develop an Old Testament and New Testament that worked together.

It could have something to do with theology or interpretation of scriptures, but that would only be a guess.

Since she did not make herself clear I sent an email to the site.  It is no longer in service. The email bounced back to me.  The site is 11 years old.  We have no idea what Ms. Winter's credentials are or what she had in mind with her comment.  It is a poorly written statement.

A legimate author would cite historical sources to back up their claims.

I have already told you that Irenaeus
was not the first or only person to give reasons why there are only 4 gospels and cited several historical sources.

As far as we know Ms. Winter's main claim to fame is that she won the Pillsbury Bake-off Contest in 1952 for her recipe for chocolate chip cookies.

You must be very careful of your sources, BMZ.  Check them out and then verify them with other sources and do, please, try to get some historical basis for your claims.

Take care,

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote Patty Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 6:02am

Anything Gnostic is heresy in the Catholic Church, and is also against the beliefs of Protestant denominations.  Kick it to the curb.  (Unless you believe in things untrue.)

God's peace!

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 6:51am

Originally posted by BMZ

"Let me put you out of your misery.  Whether a Christian reads the Old Testament in the Greek translated from the Hebrew or the English translated form the Hebrew, they come to the same conclusions about Jesus and the prophecies."

Herein lies the problem. You fail to understand that I am saying that the Christian reads HIS Old Testament, which is attached to the New Testament and that OT is different from the Jewish Scripture from which came the Christian Old Testament. Is this clear now. 

Believe it or not, I do understand what you are saying.  The Greek translation is not that different from the Hebrew as far as I can see.  You will find differences in translations even in the various English translations from the Hebrew which are translations by the Jews themselves.  The Christian historians read both the Greek and the Hebrew and so do Christian pastors and priests as well as some ordinary Christians who know Hebrew and Greek.

Originally posted by BMZ

Yes, the Jews have their Scripture also translated in English. They have it in the Hebrew also. The Jews do not come to the same conclusions as the Christians. The Jews DO NOT accept the Christian's OT as their Scripture. Period. You may ask Rabbis at some Rabbi.coms or ask Moses.Com or Ask the Rabbi and post here the e-mail that your receive.

I do know that the Jews prefer their Hebrew Scriptures opposed to the translation of the Greek.  The Jews do not come to the same conclusions based on interpretations, not so much on the text.  It is a matter of interpretation and the Jews differ among themselves as to the meaning of particular scriptures.  If you read the thoughts of some Jewish Rabbis you will see this.

Originally posted by BMZ



From you, Annie: "The proof of that is the Messanic Jews.  They read the Old Testament either in English from the Hebrew scriptures or directly from the Hebrew as many of them read and understand Hebrew and they come to the same conclusions that the Christians do."

Messianic Jews are no Jews, they are simply Christians. That is just a fanciful name given to the Jews who became Christians.   I do not wish to explain what they believe is going to happen and what they stand for. It would not be good for this board and please don't ask me to elaborate. I would rate them as Christians+Jews, which is not really healthy.  They are a dangerous lot! You know well what I mean, so please don't ask. (Hint:Restoration of Jews and Israel at any cost and at the cost of the entire humanity, Planet and the Universe. )

Don't put all Messianic Jews in the same category, BMZ.  Many (most?) are not Zionists, just as many Jews are not Zionists.  Your comment has no bearing on the subject.  The subject is the interpretation of scriptures.  The Messianic Jews read the Hebrew and come to the conclusion that Jesus is the King of the Jews, the Messiah, the same as Christians do.

Originally posted by BMZ


From you, Annie: "So your effort to imply that Irenaeus wrote the Septuagint falls flat on its face.  Irenaeus had nothing to do with the writing of the Septuagint as I pointed out to you."

I am please to hear you say that Irenaeus had nothing to do with the writing of the Septuagint.

Originally posted by BMZ

How did he do that? To find out read some chapters that I recommended. An example: Why was Lord Jesus born without a man father? Answer: Irenaeus, most likely must have reworded Isaiah 7:14 of the Jewish OT to Isaiah 7:14 of the Christian OT.

You are trying to say that Irenaeus changed the text?  BMZ, have you no idea how impossible that would be?  "Irenaeus most likely reworded????"  On what historical basis do you come to that conclusion?  Irenaeus had nothing to do with the Seputagint.  Period.  The Seuptagint along with "virgin" instead of "young woman" was completed 400 years before Irenaeus was born.  The Seputagint was translated by Jews and not Christians.  The Seputagint was translated from Hebrew into Greek for the benefit of those Jews who no longer understood the Hebrew.

Originally posted by BMZ

Hope I have made clear that it is not me. You have got to blame Theresa Winters and Arenaeus, please.

Yes, it is you, jumping to conclusions and coming up with the wrong one, which cannot be supported with historical evidence.

 

Annie

Edited by AnnieTwo
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 6:55am
Originally posted by Patty

Anything Gnostic is heresy in the Catholic Church, and is also against the beliefs of Protestant denominations.  Kick it to the curb.  (Unless you believe in things untrue.)

God's peace!



Hi Patty,

You are correct. Gnosticism is heresy in both the Catholic and Protestant churches.

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2006 at 7:38am

Hi Annie,

It was nice of you to have checked on your own initiative because you needed that more, not me!   Those are not my sources, I posted what I saw. I don't have time to go and verify the links and sources.

Looks like she turned out like those Ali Sinas and Ibne Warraqs.  

Anyway that article has some truth in it. We cannot just discard it so easily. If it were not Irenaeus, it could have been someone that we don't know, but someone did make changes while writing the Christian OT from the Jewish OT.  That is still more factual.

From you, Annie: "I have already told you that Irenaeus was not the first or only person to give reasons why there are only 4 gospels and cited several historical sources."

I don't think I asked for that. What I know from the Scripture is that 4 gospels were chosen to represent "the four corners" of the world. Is that right?

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