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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Topic: A question
    Posted: 10 June 2006 at 4:44am

The Ecole
Initiative

The Ecole Glossary


St. Irenaeus of Lyons

St. Irenaeus (c 130-202 CE) was the most important theologian of the second century. In his youth, Irenaeus knew Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Pothinus, first Bishop of Lyons, asked Irenaeus to become a presbyter at the Church of Lyons. During peace missions to Rome, Irenaeus strongly opposed Gnosticism and urged Victor I to maintain peace with Asia Minor concerning a controversy over the correct date of Easter. Pothinus was martyred under the persecutions of Marcus Aurelius in 177 while Irenaeus was away in Rome. Upon Irenaeus' return, he was appointed Bishop of Lyons. Irenaeus' best known writings are Against Heresies and Proof of the Apostolic Preaching. In these works, he refuted Gnosticism and defended the belief that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are one in the same, using the notions of recapitulation and apostolic tradition as proof. Irenaeus was the first person to develop an Old Testament and New Testament that worked together. He was also the first person to cite reasons for admitting or rejecting books into the canon. Irenaeus died in Lyon around 202.

Theresa A. Winters


Copyright © 1995, Theresa A. Winters. This file may be copied on the condition that the entire contents,
including the header and this copyright notice, remain intact.
 
 
Please read carefully the part that I have emboldened in red and increased the font size. That is what I had always thought, had been done to the Jewish OT by someone but never knew who did that.
 
Comments would be welcome. Annie and George, how do you justify this? Do you agree with the above statement that Irenaeus did the OT and NT?


Edited by bmzsp
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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 5:43am
The Marçionite Christians (the Gnostics Irenaeus was most concerned with) believed there were two different creator gods.  They believed the OT God was an altogether different Jewish tribal god entirely seperate from the NT God.

See http://members.aol.com/didymus5/ch9.html

The Ebionite Christians always considered there to be only one God, as they stayed very close to their Jewish heritage.  Other Christian sects did too, but I use the Ebionites since they were the Christians most familiar to the Prophet Muhummad and Irenaeus discussed them directly.  Irenaeus also considered the Ebioite Christians heretics, so in a sense he did create an orthodox opinion by dismissing both Ebionite and Marçionite Christianities, but the concept of a single God spanning both testaments has always been present.

I would say Irenaeus codified, but did not develop, the continuity between the OT & NT Gods.
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 6:25am
BMZ,

Could you develop this thought a bit more?

Please read carefully the part that I have emboldened in red and increased the font size. That is what I had always thought, had been done to the Jewish OT by someone but never knew who did that.

What are you trying to say?  Expand your thoughts, please.

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 7:34am

Irenaeus was the first person to develop an Old Testament and New Testament that worked together. He was also the first person to cite reasons for admitting or rejecting books into the canon.

Oh Yes, Annie

From you: "What are you trying to say?  Expand your thoughts, please."

Now take a look at the following from the Jewish Scripture:

Isaiah 53 talks about "Israel suffers for the Lord".

Daniel 9 talks about Daniel meditating upon Jeremiah's prophecy and also includes Daniel's confessions of sins.

Zechariah 12 talks about Jerusalem a cup of staggering, Jerusalem a stone of burden and then it talks about Restoration of Judah and Repentance of Jerusalem.

It is your turn to put the above three just in 2-3 lined statements from the Christian OT as developed by Irenaeus. No commentary please, just the factual statement.

After re-writing according to Christian OT, please tell me in a separate post, what prophesies do you see?



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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 8:19am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Irenaeus was the first person to develop an Old Testament and New Testament that worked together. He was also the first person to cite reasons for admitting or rejecting books into the canon.

Oh Yes, Annie

From you: "What are you trying to say?  Expand your thoughts, please."

Now take a look at the following from the Jewish Scripture:

Isaiah 53 talks about "Israel suffers for the Lord".

Daniel 9 talks about Daniel meditating upon Jeremiah's prophecy and also includes Daniel's confessions of sins.

Zechariah 12 talks about Jerusalem a cup of staggering, Jerusalem a stone of burden and then it talks about Restoration of Judah and Repentance of Jerusalem.

It is your turn to put the above three just in 2-3 lined statements from the Christian OT as developed by Irenaeus. No commentary please, just the factual statement.

After re-writing according to Christian OT, please tell me in a separate post, what prophesies do you see?



The Septuagint was written several hundred years before the birth of Messiah Jesus.  Irenaeus did not write the Septuagint.

<>
<>In these works, he refuted Gnosticism and defended the belief that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are one in the same, using the notions of recapitulation and apostolic tradition as proof.


I would say that since Irenaeus lived in the times of Marcion, who believed that the Old Testament god was not the same god as the New Testament, that he was objecting to this view and tried to convince these people that it wasn't so.


He was also the first person to cite reasons for admitting or rejecting books into the canon.


Irenaeus he had lots of company in this regard.  I think history shows that Irenaeus was not the first.  Irenaeus circa 130-202.

The Muratorian Fragment, circa 170-190AD which lists the 4 Gospels as accepted by the Church.

Tatian composed his "Diatessaron." (150AD)  "Diatessaron" is a musical term meaning "harmony of four."  It was the 'harmony' of our four traditional gospels 'women together' into one.

You are way off-base on this one, BMZ.

I'll look at those prophecies later, but I fail to see your point.

Annie

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 8:46am
BMZ,

Originally posted by BMZ

Now take a look at the following from the Jewish Scripture:

Isaiah 53 talks about "Israel suffers for the Lord".

Some Jews say that it speaks of the nation of Israel, some other Jews say it refers to a person on behalf of Israel, yet some say it speaks of the Messiah.  Whichever it is still a prophecy and it is a matter of interpretation.

Originally posted by BMZ

Daniel 9 talks about Daniel meditating upon Jeremiah's prophecy and also includes Daniel's confessions of sins.

What is your point?

Originally posted by BMZ

Zechariah 12 talks about Jerusalem a cup of staggering, Jerusalem a stone of burden and then it talks about Restoration of Judah and Repentance of Jerusalem.

What is your point?

Originally posted by BMZ

It is your turn to put the above three just in 2-3 lined statements from the Christian OT as developed by Irenaeus. No commentary please, just the factual statement.


Irenaeus did not develop the Old Testament.  You are misinterpreting.

Originally posted by BMZ


After re-writing according to Christian OT, please tell me in a separate post, what prophesies do you see?


Re-Writing according to ...."  What are you talking about?

What prophecies do you see?

Annie 


Edited by AnnieTwo
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 8:52am

Annie,

You were totally unable to answer or comprehend.   

I knew you will keep on failing to see my point.    Let me add an honest twist here for you. You dig up prophecies looking to justify the coming of Jesus, the forms of Jesus and the nature of Jesus in the Christian OT, which is neither supported by the Jewish Scriptures (Jewish OT) nor the Jews themselves.

I am sure you will be thrusting instead of piercing!  

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2006 at 8:59am

Annie,

This is going great!

From you: "Irenaeus did not develop the Old Testament.  You are misinterpreting."

Please don't tell me, tell that to Theresa A. Winters and write her telling that she might have misinterpreted according to your observation.

As for myself, the following statement tells me that Irenaeus did doctor the Jewish Scriptures to make OT compatible with NT:

Irenaeus was the first person to develop an Old Testament and New Testament that worked together. He was also the first person to cite reasons for admitting or rejecting books into the canon.

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