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Interfaith Dialogue
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Topic: Sin
    Posted: 03 June 2006 at 10:54pm

In the name of God, the infinitely good and the most merciful

The concept of Sin is the act which is a transgression of God which, can be felt as highly reprehensible. Another definition is that it is a vitated stated in human nature which makes the self, estranged from God.

According to Christianity the coming and death of Jesus redeemed mankind from the original sin committed from Adam. A question to our co-religionist I wanted to ask was in the geneology of Mary I wanted to know where in the Bible (or in history) where she was pure. What I mean is that how did she become pure? According to the geneology of Mary she as a pure woman was the only one without sin and if so, since she  too was born of her parents how did become born without sin?

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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 04 June 2006 at 2:17pm
Any of our co-religionist want to take a crack at it?
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:29am

I thought pure was that Mary was a virgin and had not been taken yet.

You just put a new spin this

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Patty
 
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Quote Patty Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:53am

Hi Israfil....I'll be happy to "take a crack at it"

The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."

Genesis 3:15

The first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. The conqueror from the seed of the woman, who should crush the serpent's head, is Christ; the woman at enmity with the serpent is Mary. God puts enmity between her and Satan in the same manner and measure, as there is enmity between Christ and the seed of the serpent. Mary was ever to be in that exalted state of soul which the serpent had destroyed in man, i.e. in sanctifying grace. Only the continual union of Mary with grace explains sufficiently the enmity between her and Satan. The Proto-evangelium, therefore, in the original text contains a direct promise of the Redeemer, and in conjunction therewith the manifestation of the masterpiece of His Redemption, the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin.

Luke 1:28

The salutation of the angel Gabriel -- chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. But the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma.

From the texts Proverbs 8 and Ecclesiasticus 24 (which exalt the Wisdom of God and which in the liturgy are applied to Mary, the most beautiful work of God's Wisdom), or from the Canticle of Canticles (4:7, "Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee").

There are other scriptural references and Church Tradition which I can provide at your request.  I hope this offers the evidence for which you were searching. 

God's Peace!

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:55am
Israfil, you must consider the power of the Holy Spirit to sanctify and forgive.  Mary was not born without sin, but she was sanctified and free from sin at the immaculate conception.

Her sister, Elizabeth, was similarly sanctified at merely believing the miracle in Luke 1:41
David C.
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2006 at 8:27am

I decided to take a crack at this one using Eastern Orthodoxy.  I went to the OCA and the OCF websites and retrieved some things that would help you understand the other side of the coin from a Mainstream Christian standpoint.  I still hold many of these beliefs.

ORIGINAL SIN

QUESTION:

I would like to know what is the orthodox canon regarding the "original sin." The following confuse me:

Father Michael Azkoul states that God punished man only once for the original sin by introducing death, and the original sin wasn't transferred to the next generations.

He says (on the OCF website): "The Church does not accept the idea that the Mother of God was born with the (inherited) guilt of Adam; no one is ..."

On the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Toronto's page there is a totally different statement:
"Worst of all, original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam andEve's."



ANSWER:

Concerning the original -- or "first" -- sin, that commited by Adam and Eve, Orthodoxy believes that, while everyone bears the consequences of the first sin, the foremost of which is death, only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin. Roman Catholicism teaches that everyone bears not only the consequence, but also the guilt, of that sin. In the article by Fr. Azkoul, he deals with this quite clearly in the sections above the quote which you sent in your email. There is nothing wrong with his statement.

Concerning the second passage -- from the Toronto Metropolis' web site -- it would probably have been clearer to the reader had the sentence read as follows: "Worst of all, the consequences of the original sin are hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's." I am not sure that there is any conflict whatsoever; rather, the second passage needs to be clarified. (EDITED TO REMOVE NON TOPIC INFORMATION)

http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=3&SID=3

9. The Mother of God

The doctrine of the place and person of the Virgin Mary in the Church is called "mariology." Both Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism believe she is "Mother of God" (Theotokos, Deipare) and "the Ever-Virgin Mary."

However, the Orthodox reject the Roman Catholic "dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary," which was defined as "of the faith" by Pope Pius IX, on the 8th of December 1854. This dogma holds that from the first instant of her conception, the Blessed Virgin Mary was, by a most singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of the human race, preserved from all stain of Original Sin. It is a doctrine revealed by God, and therefore to be firmly and steadfastly believed by all the faithful (from the Bull Ineffabilis Deus).

Such a theory has no basis in the Scriptures nor the Fathers. It contains many ideas (such as "the merits of Christ") likewise without apostolic foundation. The idea that the Lord and His Saints produced more grace than necessary. This excess may be applied to others, even those in purgatory (see below).

But to return: the Church does not accept the idea that the Mother of God was born with the (inherited) guilt of Adam; no one is. She did, however, inherit the mortality which comes to all on account of Adam's Fall.

Therefore, there is no need to do what Latin theologians have done. There is no reason to invent a theory to support the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. There is no need to teach that, on account of "the merits of Christ," the Holy Spirit was able to prevent her from inheriting the guilt of Adam.

In fact, she was born like every other human being. The Holy Spirit prepared the Virgin Mary for her role as the Mother of God. She was filled with the Uncreated Energy of the Holy Spirit of God in order that she might be a worthy vessel for the birth of Christ. Nevertheless, several of the Fathers observed that before the Resurrection of her Son, she had sinned. St. John Chrysostom mentions the Wedding at Cana where she presumed to instruct Him (John 2:3-4). Here was proof of her mortality.

Receiving the Holy Spirit once more at Pentecost, she was able to die without sin. Because of her special role in the Divine Plan ("economy" or "dispensation"), she was taken into the heavens, body and soul. She now sits at the foot of her Son, making intercession for all those who implore her mercy. The Orthodox Church honors the miracle of her "assumption" with a feast on 15 August; likewise, the followers of the Pope.

Both also believe in the intercessions of the Virgin Mary and all the Saints. Such intercessions reflect the unity of the Church in heaven and the Church on earth.

Both also believe that there is a sense in which the Mother of God is the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ. Those who belong to the Church are identified with Him. But He is also our "brother" (Rom. 8:29). If Christ is our brother, then, the Virgin Mary is our mother. But the Church is our mother through Baptism. Therefore, the Virgin Mary is the Church.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

 

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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2006 at 9:25am

Poor Israfil had to wait 3 days for any reply.

 

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2006 at 11:34am
Originally posted by Angel

Poor Israfil had to wait 3 days for any reply.


Yes, poor Israfil indeed.  Not only pregnant and swollen with doubt but also unable to utilize the meditation of the Sacred Heart of Mary to assuage his suffering.

David C.
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