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Prophets - Jesus
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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2008 at 12:55am
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 robin has not replied about the son of man. Jesus was son of man. I wanted to know who  was that man please?

 

In Hebrew this is mainly a translation of the expression ben-’a·dham´. Instead of referring to the person, Adam, ’a·dham´ is here used generically for "mankind" so that the expression ben-’a·dham´ means, in essence, "a son of mankind, a human, an earthling son." (Ps 80:17; 146:3; Jer 49:18, 33) The phrase is often employed in parallel with other Hebrew terms for "man," namely, ’ish, meaning "a male person" (compare Num 23:19; Job 35:8; Jer 50:40) and ’enohsh´, "a mortal man." (Compare Ps 8:4; Isa 51:12; 56:2.) At Psalm 144:3 the "son of mortal man" is ben-’enohsh´, while the Aramaic equivalent (bar ’enash´) appears at Daniel 7:13.

In Greek the expression is hui·os´ tou an·thro´pou, the latter part of the phrase representing the Greek generic word for "man" (an´thro·pos).—Mt 16:27.

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Quote mariyah Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2008 at 10:53am
[QUOTE=Katherine] Yes, Deut 18 is referring to the Messiah, eventually.  A Jew would tell you that Deut. 18 speaks of all prophets who came after Moses, and that these prophets were Jewish and they would tell you that it couldn't possibly be Muhammad who was not a Jew.

Brethern could refer to any tribe of Israel.  Ishmael's group were really step-brethern.

"The Levitical priests, that is, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel ... they shall have no inheritance among their brethren".  Deuteronomy 18.1-2.

Therefore the only logical interpretation of Deuteronomy 18.18 can be: "I will raise up for them (that is, the tribe of Levi) a prophet like you from among their brethren (that is, one of the other tribes of Israel)". Indeed throughout the Old Testament we often find the expression "their brethren" meaning the remaining tribes of Israel as distinct from the tribe specifically referred to. Look at this verse as an example:

But the children of Benjamin would not listen to the voice of their brethren, the children of Israel.  Judges 20.13

Here "their brethren" is specifically stated to be the other tribes of Israel as distinct from the tribe of Benjamin. In Deuteronomy 18.18, therefore, "their brethren" clearly means the brethren in Israel of the tribe of Levi.  Again in Numbers 8.26 the tribe of Levi is commanded to minister to "their brethren", that is, the remaining tribes of Israel.  In 2 Kings 24.12 the tribe of Judah is distinguished from "their brethren", once again the remaining tribes of Israel. (Further scriptures proving the point are Judges 21.22, 2 Samuel 2.26, 2 Kings 23.9, 1 Chronicles 12.32, 2 Chronicles 28.15, Nehemiah 5.1 and others).

In Deuteronomy 17.15 we read that Moses on one occasion said to the Israelites "One from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother". Only an Israelite could be appointed king of Israel - "one from among your brethren" - no foreigner, be he Ishmaelite, Edomite or whoever he may be, could be made King of Israel because he was not one of "their brethren", that is, a member of one of the tribes of Israel.

Since all of the tribes of Israel are called "brethern" a Muslim would have to come up with a reason why they were excluded, based on facts.

Further than this, the promise came through Isaac and not Ishmael.

In addition the New Testament identifies the prophet like Moses as Jesus Christ.

 
 
this is what the Torah really says:

Devarim - Deuteronomy

Chapter 18


1 The priests the Levites, even all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion nor inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings of HaShem made by fire, and His inheritance.

2 And they shall have no inheritance among their brethren; HaShem is their inheritance, as He hath spoken unto them.

3 And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep, that they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.

4 The first-fruits of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.

5 For HaShem thy G-d hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of HaShem, him and his sons for ever.

6 And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourneth, and come with all the desire of his soul unto the place which HaShem shall choose;

7 then he shall minister in the name of HaShem his G-d, as all his brethren the Levites do, who stand there before HaShem.

8 They shall have like portions to eat, beside that which is his due according to the fathers' houses.

9 When thou art come into the land which HaShem thy G-d giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, a soothsayer, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer,

11 or a charmer, or one that consulteth a ghost or a familiar spirit, or a necromancer.

12 For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto HaShem; and because of these abominations HaShem thy G-d is driving them out from before thee.

13 Thou shalt be whole-hearted with HaShem thy G-d.

14 For these nations, that thou art to dispossess, hearken unto soothsayers, and unto diviners; but as for thee, HaShem thy G-d hath not suffered thee so to do.

15 A prophet will HaShem thy G-d raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 according to all that thou didst desire of HaShem thy G-d in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying: 'Let me not hear again the voice of HaShem my G-d, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.'

17 And HaShem said unto me: 'They have well said that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'

21 And if thou say in thy heart: 'How shall we know the word which HaShem hath not spoken?'

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of HaShem, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which HaShem hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him



Edited by mariyah - 09 July 2008 at 10:55am
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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mariyah
 
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Quote mariyah Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2008 at 11:04am
Information on the book  Deuteronomy:

Literary History

Traditionally, the entire book of Deuteronomy has been attributed to Moses. However, some features, including the account of Moses' death, have led scholars to conclude that parts of it come from a later time. While there is little consensus as to its precise history, there is general agreement that the book reflects a long process of compilation as the community reapplied the Mosaic traditions in later situations, as indeed the book itself suggests (e.g., 30:1-5, cf. 6:20-25).

However, this does not preclude the possibility that some core of the book, perhaps large portions of it, does come from Moses. It is generally believed that Josiah used an early form of the book of Deuteronomy to guide his sweeping reforms (ca. 621 BC; 2 Kings 22:1-7; 2 Chron. 34:1-7; see Josiah and Religious Reforms). There is also some evidence that portions of the book reflect the crisis of Babylonian exile (587-539 BC, e.g., 29:28; cf. 29:29-30:5, 28:49-57, 64-68). The present form of the book reflects the application, reuse, and reinterpretation of the older Mosaic instructions in new and changing historical circumstances.

Features and Theology

Deuteronomy is not a book of laws; it is a book of the heart, instruction (Heb:  torah) in how to live intentionally as God's people in response to His love and mercy (e.g., 4:29, 6:4, 32-40, 11:1). One of the most important features of the book is its homiletical style. The commandments are not presented in legal format, but are cast in the style of a sermon, interwoven with pleas and exhortations to obedience, all grounded in the prevenient (initiating) grace of God.

Also, the concept of covenant around which the book revolves is not primarily a legal concept, but a cultural way of expressing relationship between Yahweh and His people. The call to obedience throughout the book is an appeal to order all of life in relation to the One who had revealed Himself in their history as the true and living God. It is not just the imposition of law; it is a call to choose God (30:15-20, cf. Josh 24:14-15), which worked out in practical instructions.

 
Read the rest at
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2008 at 11:30am
 
 From the above post:
8 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'

21 And if thou say in thy heart: 'How shall we know the word which HaShem hath not spoken?'

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of HaShem, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which HaShem hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 
It is quite clear that the promised prophet is only one and not the many prophets of the Israelis. That prophet will be the like of Moses a.s. He will be raised up from the brethren of Israelis. God will put His words in the mouth of the prophet. The prophet will then speak onto the people.
 
 If any one will not listen to that prophet, God will take an account of him. The prophet will speak in the name of God. It is very cleat that prophet Muhammad told everything in the name of Allah. The same is written on the head of every chapter of the Quran that it is coming from Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful.
 
 After Moses, no prophet had come who was the like of Moses a.s. Moses a.s. was prophet who brought a law for the people. So did Muhammad. Both are law bearing prophets. Whatever Muhammad said was fulfilled. That is another proof that he was the true prophet of God. Muhammad was not a god, a semi god or demi god. He was completely a man, like Moses a.s.
 
 Why would Moses a.s. say the word Brethren without further explanation.  Every where else when word brethren is spoken then the other verses expalin that Israelis are meant. But in verse 18:18 it is not done.
 
 There is enough report that after the Jews rejected Jesus, the blessing was taken away from the house of Jacob. Jesus also said at a time "Your house is being left desolate... The kingdom will be given to other people...
 
 The verse 18:8, 
8 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
 
 This verse is telling that the promised prophet will be a one with the new Code (law). Every law bearing prophet has to tell all that is revealed to him. Those who are not law bearing, they do not have to tell. Some of their revelation is meant for their guidance.
 
 Also it is being told that a fals eprophet will die. That is not correct. The right words are "A false prophet will be killed". We know that every prophet, true or false they die. The church has changed the words from "killed " to "die". That was bad.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2008 at 10:43am
Jesus was the Word of GOD!!  GOD's Word did come from Jesus' mouth.  Jesus did speak under the authority of GOD.
 
004.171
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak against Allah, but the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2008 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by minuteman

robin has not replied about the son of man. Jesus was son of man. I wanted to know who  was that man please?

I used to find that confusing too.  "Son of man" means "son of mankind", i.e. a man.  It's just a way of emphasizing that He was human like us.
 
I think it was also a kind of code phrase.  The Zealots would recognize the phrase "son of man" as referring to the prophecy of the Messiah, while the Romans would not.  To openly declare Jesus as the Messiah, i.e. the rightful King of the Jews, would have been seditious.  And yes, I think He was ultimately crucified for sedition.
 
 The term son of man was son of mankind. Then son of God could be son of godkind. Could it be so? You have tried to take the matter towards sedition. But it does not prove. Because he was arrested on the charges by the Jews, not Romans. They tried to get another charge on Jesus of being the king of Jews.
 
 That is like in some Urdu saying, they say "Marray ko maaray Shahmadaar", that means, a man is caught and already in trouble and you pile up more trouble (charges) on him as much as you like. He cannot do anything about it.
 
 The problem is that Jews were crying hoarse that jesus should be Crucified. Why? It can only mean that there was no charge of blasphemy. The actual charge was (as described in the Quran) that Jewish high priests were exposed as criminals by Jesus. They were exposed as irreligious people. They could not get rid of him in any way. So they supported the idea of him being a prince or from the line of David, calling himself as the king of the Jews, the rightful heir to the throne of David.
 
 It was the Jews who tried to involve Jesus in the charge of sedition. Your posts help even though I do not understand the full implications of your post. My English is not so good.


Edited by minuteman - 11 July 2008 at 10:25pm
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:56pm
The verse 18:8, 
8 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
 
minuteman- you are reading more into the verse then what is there.  All this verse is saying is that the words the prophet speaks will be GOD's words.
 
John 19
12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."


Edited by believer - 16 July 2008 at 5:57pm
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2008 at 4:25am
Originally posted by believer

The verse 18:8, 
8 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
 
minuteman- you are reading more into the verse then what is there.  All this verse is saying is that the words the prophet speaks will be GOD's words.
 
John 19
12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."
 
 Dear believer, I am reading the right thing. Nothing more nothing less. Please see the words again. I have colored some of them....
 
 The verse  Deut 18:18, 
 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
 
  "I"  means God or Allah.
  "them" means Israelis. AllIsraelis, not one tribe.
  " a prophet " means a prophet, not a god, or not God and prophet.
  "their brethren" means the brethren of the israelis. Not the bretheren of any one tribe of the Israelis.
 
 "Like unto thee" means that prophet who is promised will be like of Moses. Forget from where he will come. Just concentrate that will be a prophet only and will be the like of Moses a.s. who commanded his people and gave them a law. Who led his people to victory against their adversaries (enemies, the Egyptians).
 
 "My words" means a lot. That prophet will get some words from God. The words will be put in his mouth. He will receive revelation from God.
 
 "he" means that promised person (That prophet).
  " Shall speak unto them" means that prophet will convey the message given to him from God. He will speak unto his people.... Will pass the message onto the people and willtell them that it is from God.
 
 "all that I command him" means that he will tell all that is given to him from God and will not say that he had many things to say..... But he could not do it.... He will tell all also menas that he will be a prophet with a code (Shariah). It is the duty of the law bearing prophet to tell all things to his people. If he is not a law bearing prophet then he may not tell all things to his people because some things may be only for him from God. The one who has to tell all is a law bearing prophet.
 
 Please consider all the points above and make judgement if Jesus could be That prophet. It is sure that "That promised Prophet" had not come till the time of Jesus. And if Jesus was not "That prophet" then no one has come after Jesus except Muhammad. So the point becomes clear that the christians have to admit that the promised prophet is Muhammad only, no one else. There is no use towing the line of the Jews and denying the blessings to Muhammad.
 
 The important point is that Moses a.s. told about some one to come after him. It is no use giving that seat to Jesus. Some one was to come. Jesus also told about some one to come after him. But church has assigned it to a ghost or holy spirit and not a man. Please remember that previously only the men have been coming to guide the men. It is a new theory that church has brought a God (Jesus) on earth and that also to be killed on the cross... What a strange formula !

 Then to complicate the matters further, the church has got a ghost to lead the people. That is also a new theory. It is funny that ghost was already leading and guiding Jesus. He needed the ghost too, being a god himself, he needed the ghost. That is strange. But there is something in it. They need the ghost, and the ghost also needs some one too, to whom the ghost will come (land upon).

But that ghost is the holy spirit and that holy spirit primarily lands only and specially on the prophets, not on other men. And it conveys the words of God to that prophet. That is already proved from the bible.

It therefore transpires that there will be a prophet after Jesus who will be visited by the holy spirit.That is excatly what happened in the case of Muhammad. He was visited by the angel Gabriel, who is called the holy spirit in the Quran. That angel had been bringing messages before to other prophets. So there is no complication and we can admit that the prophet to come after Jesus is Muhammad.

 
 
 
 
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