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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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amah
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Quote amah Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2006 at 12:21pm
Brother Israfil,
Could you please give me reference for that hadith? Jazakallahkhairan.
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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herjihad
 
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Quote herjihad Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2006 at 2:16pm

Bismillah,

I agree with you Brother Israfil that loving Allah, The Most High, the most will elevate our spirits more than anything else.  The endless wonderous qualities of our Lord are unmatched and limitlessly inspiring.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2006 at 2:39pm

As'Salaamu Alaikum

The following references are taken from:http://www.abc.se/~m9783/lp_e.html

Love of the Prophet is what differentiates the believers in the perfection of their imaan. In an authentic hadith related in Bukhari and Muslim, the Prophet said:

"None of you believes until he loves me more than he loves his children, his parents, and all people." In another hadith in Bukhari he said: "None of you believes until he loves me more than he loves himself."

Perfection of faith is dependent on love of the Prophet because Allah and His angels are constantly raising his honor, as is meant in the verse:

"Allah and His angels are praying on the Prophet" (33:56).

The Divine order that immediately follows in the verse:

"O believers, pray on him,"

makes it clear that the quality of being a believer is dependent on and manifested by praying on the Prophet.

O Allah! Send peace and blessings on the Prophet, his family, and his companions. see also (3) .

Also some examples from Hadith can be taken from this narrative:

A man came to the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, and said: "O Messenger of Allah, direct me to an act which if I do it, [will cause] Allah to love me and people to love me." He, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, answered: "Be indifferent to the world and Allah will love you; be indifferent to what people possess and they will love you."

"None of you believes until he loves me more than he loves his children, his parents, and all people." In another hadith in Bukhari he said: "None of you believes until he loves me more than he loves himself."

So according to this verse there can be implied several meanings perhaps. To love the prophet "more than yourselves" is perhaps symbolic for the rejection of the material world. The obligation of the believer to reject what we hold dear to ourselves in the material world and to hold the prophet, as an example of the best kind of human being. However, the literalist which is are most scholars hold this in the literal sense.

If the prophet is defamed in the world we too must rise in in defense of the prophet as someone who is dear to us. However, it can be perhaps argued that this is indirect worship. We love the prophet as he delivered a lost message. He came as a desert Arab who was belittled yet rose to the occasion against a people who were ignorant. However it is my understanding that to 'love' someone in the extent as the Hadith implies defies the love we 'should' have for God. After all, our sacrifices such as our children and family should be for God.

One thing about Catholic nuns and priest I admire is their determination to show their love by devoting their life to God. regardless what you may think God is, it is evident that in their minds their love is for the Creator. They not only sacrifice their personal lives for God but also the potential to have a family. They are never to marry anyone so long as their mortal lives exist on this earth. To me that is true love. To sacrifice even your lineage for God.

Sister Amah when we create our masjid's and elevate the prophet's name alongside with Allah's we are creating partial polytheism in the symbolic sense because we are to both honor both entities whom in the various communities are elevated. The prophet, to a lot of people is superhuman beyond humanity. To some Shi'its the same reverence is found in Ali.

Who knows we may even come close to developing the trinity in Islam Ali, Muhammad and God.

In my humble belief Allah is the artisan who we should love more than ourselves. In my belief Allah is the one we should sacrifice our families and children for. Take the example of prophet Ibrahim when he was to sacrifice Issac for Allah. That example alone is the most symbolic for us to follow as he was going to sacrifice his own son for Allah when Allah commanded him.



Edited by Israfil
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2006 at 5:17pm

Assalamu Alaikum:

"Who knows we may even come close to developing the trinity in Islam Ali, Muhammad and God."

Astafra'Allah. 

I think this can only be called worship of the Prophet if that is what the intention is. All Prophets and Messengers have asked their followers to turn from their worldly lives and those who would not accept the message, and follow them. This would be showing greater love for God and His Messenger, whoever the Messenger, than you show for yourself or your family.

If a Muslim sees the Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) as more than a man, that is on that individual's head. Not on Islam, as the Quran and the Prophet(PBUH) both forbid this.

You should love the Prophet Mohammed as a Messenger of God and as one would love someone who has done a great deed for you by bringing the Message. But the Message originates from God, and all of the Prophets were just men entrusted with God's Word. No more, no less.

"They are never to marry anyone so long as their mortal lives exist on this earth. To me that is true love. To sacrifice even your lineage for God."

But Allah(SWT) did not ask us to do this. Just the opposite.

"After all, our sacrifices such as our children and family should be for God."

No one is asking you to sacrifice yourself or your family for the Prophet(PBUH). Do you mean sacrificing your life or your belongings or what?

Loving the Prophet(PBUH) for the sake of Allah(SWT) is different than sacrificing for him. Although the type of sacrifice is important. If someone asked you to sacrifice your life for your child's would you? If we sacrifice only for God, then we would not sacrifice for our families, our friends, our fellow Muslims, or human beings.

You are a police officer, you may sacrifice your life for your job. It all depends on your intentions.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2006 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Amah,

If I told you I love God more than I love myself and I said I love the prophet more than myself? That is something set on equal footing, thus a contradiction. The Hadith does not imply in that sequence you just wrote. I'm mainly commenting on that Hadith reference not the sequence you present.

Assalamu Alaikum:

This is only on equal footing if that is what you believe in your heart, and your intentions for this love.

You can love your Mother more than your Father, this is an earthly love that has limitations. Just as your Mother has nurtured you and shown you more love than your Father. She sacrificed for you and struggled for you. This is what has given you this strong bond to her.

The Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) sacrificed and suffered to bring us the Message of Allah(SWT). Because of his sacrifice and suffering, we should hold him in high esteem and love him. Just as we do all of the Prophets and Messengers. Without their sacrifices and suffering we would not have been steered to the right path.

We love our parents because they loved us, raised us, and protected us. They sacrificed so that we might be prepared for the life of this earth. We should love the Prophet more because he sacrificed to bring us the Message from God that would prepare us for eternity.

But the love we feel for Allah(SWT) should go beyond any love that we feel for any human. Allah(SWT) is the Creator of everything. Allah(SWT) gave you your Mother and created us so that you can feel this bond of love. He sent us the Prophets so that we could learn the truth and prepare for the Deen. Without Allah's Mercy and Guidance, we would have none of this. He made you able to feel love, so how can you ever compare the love you feel for any man to the gratitude and love you feel to the Creator of the ability to have that feeling?

You can never compare the created with the Creator.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2006 at 8:54pm

Let me respond to you Mishmish yours will be in bold:

Astafra'Allah. 

I think this can only be called worship of the Prophet if that is what the intention is. All Prophets and Messengers have asked their followers to turn from their worldly lives and those who would not accept the message, and follow them. This would be showing greater love for God and His Messenger, whoever the Messenger, than you show for yourself or your family.

This is true that all prophets have asked their followers to turn away from their worldly pleasures, I mean, the materialism that leads people astray. I have to disagree that one does not have to intend to believe in the matter which I presented above you can indirectly worship without decleration of that worship. For instance Shi'ites seem to hold a high reverence for Ali more so than the prophet--it seems. Although Shi'ites may claim that they only show him honor in respect of his deeds the invocation of Ali's name in prayer the belief in "saints" and thus which show much more reverence of these worldly figures proves different.

If a Muslim sees the Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) as more than a man, that is on that individual's head. Not on Islam, as the Quran and the Prophet(PBUH) both forbid this.

You should love the Prophet Mohammed as a Messenger of God and as one would love someone who has done a great deed for you by bringing the Message. But the Message originates from God, and all of the Prophets were just men entrusted with God's Word. No more, no less.

True but erecting mosques with the prop[het's name next to God's is reverencee much greater than one who is entrusted with God's word. This has been proven.

No one is asking you to sacrifice yourself or your family for the Prophet(PBUH). Do you mean sacrificing your life or your belongings or what?

Loving the Prophet(PBUH) for the sake of Allah(SWT) is different than sacrificing for him. Although the type of sacrifice is important. If someone asked you to sacrifice your life for your child's would you? If we sacrifice only for God, then we would not sacrifice for our families, our friends, our fellow Muslims, or human beings.

You are a police officer, you may sacrifice your life for your job. It all depends on your intentions.

Sister Mishmish if you read my statement again I was merely making the example of the prophet Abraham who almost sacrficed his son Issac because God commanded him to. I was merely saying that, we should love God more and our willingness to sacrifice our families and children for God, not a messenger. Thus my belief in opposition to that hadith reference we should love Allah more than we love ourselves, family and children. You said if we sacrificed for God then we would not do it for our family, Muslims etc...Ah but in essence we would.

The fact that we are directly obeying God's commandment which he calls for in Islam in principle is the essence of a true Muslim. God calls us to do different tasks. God may have called me to be a Police Officer and if need be, if I were to sacrifice my life for a child it is for God and in essence to the Muslim community because I would be an example of a Muslim who gave his life as a selfless act thus reflecting the principle nature of Islam.

The Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) sacrificed and suffered to bring us the Message of Allah(SWT). Because of his sacrifice and suffering, we should hold him in high esteem and love him. Just as we do all of the Prophets and Messengers. Without their sacrifices and suffering we would not have been steered to the right path.

The Prophet sacrificed and suffered just like Jesus sacrificed and suffered so what is their difference? both had people who plotted ot kill them. Both had the word of God. Why do we love Muhammad more than Jesus? Allah says "and we make no distinction between them." You mention this yes but the reality of the Muslim world is different. We hold Muhammad more than just a prophet. This is the evolution of our religion. The Buddha had asked his followers to not make him into a god and look what they did after his death. Historically the followers of Islam have done this with the companions of the prophet and the relatives of the prophet. Some even invoke their names in prayers.

But the love we feel for Allah(SWT) should go beyond any love that we feel for any human. Allah(SWT) is the Creator of everything. Allah(SWT) gave you your Mother and created us so that you can feel this bond of love. He sent us the Prophets so that we could learn the truth and prepare for the Deen. Without Allah's Mercy and Guidance, we would have none of this. He made you able to feel love, so how can you ever compare the love you feel for any man to the gratitude and love you feel to the Creator of the ability to have that feeling?

You can never compare the created with the Creator.

Sister you even surprise me! We make all kinds of comparisons to our world and to God! How can we say we "love" God when God is beyond such a physical quality? Its an unconscious and consequential effort to make comparisons to our world and apply them to God. What kind of "love" do we express for God? Obedience? Obedience is the same form we show our parents. Sister we DO show the same feelings here in this world and attribute them to God consequently and as you have proven in your example my point there is no need for me to explain further.

However I'm not saying that the love of a mother and father is the same as God we should love God more however my point here is that our sacrifice for our families and our friends and children should be for God, not the messenger.

 

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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2006 at 9:26pm

Assalamu Alaikum:

Actually, in Islam, intention is everything.

If you perform prayers to conform or to show how pious you are, the prayers are not accepted. If you intend to go to Juma'a, but are stopped because a traffic jam, Allah still accepts your intention.

I said if we sacrifice only for God. Of course, it all comes back to God because He instilled in us the ability to be selfless, but if I give charity or help someone I am doing this to help the person as well as for the sake of Allah.

"How can we say we "love" God when God is beyond such a physical quality?"

Because it is the physical quality that we understand. We are not beyond love, and loving is one of the ways humans show loyalty, devotion, and gratitude. What other way could we show our feelings for Allah? By our deeds, our actions, and our love. As mere humans this is the best we have to offer. How can you say that Allah is beyond such a physical quality when Allah tells us to love Him? He may not need our love, but He does tell us to feel it for Him.

"Sister we DO show the same feelings here in this world and attribute them to God consequently and as you have proven in your example my point there is no need for me to explain further."

I attribute nothing to Allah that He has not stated in His Word. I do not believe that the love I feel for another person, the Prophet, or for Allah is the same emotion that Allah(SWT) feels. How could I even have any idea of what Allah(SWT) feels other than what He has stated in the Quran? Nor did I write anything even close to this in my post.

No one has told you to sacrifice anything for the Prophet Mohammed, just to love him.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 31 May 2006 at 8:31am

I never implied first that we should sacrifice for the prophet, the Hadith mentioned clearly states that our love for the prophet should superceed that of our family and children. In actuality, sacrifice would also encompass that love. But I'm not commenting on that in particular. sister instead of taking parts of my statements perhaps reading the entire paragraph would be of service to you when I said:

>>>>Sister you even surprise me! We make all kinds of comparisons to our world and to God! How can we say we "love" God when God is beyond such a physical quality?<<< Me

Our love for our parents is as unexplainable as our love for God! For instance we can say that we love our parents because they taught us what we know. They raised us, nurtured us the only distinction is because we can say that God is the author of those elements that allowed our parents here on earth to nurture us. My point is how we express something to God consequently is compared to how we express ourselves on earth. If not sister I challenge you to find another word which is not human related that is the same as "mercy" that we say (or do) that is expressed towards God. but this is besides the point.

You said:

I attribute nothing to Allah that He has not stated in His Word. I do not believe that the love I feel for another person, the Prophet, or for Allah is the same emotion that Allah(SWT) feels. How could I even have any idea of what Allah(SWT) feels other than what He has stated in the Quran? Nor did I write anything even close to this in my post.

Also sister you did attribute something to Allah by definition for you said:

But the love we feel for Allah(SWT) should go beyond any love that we feel for any human

You did attribute to Allah by definition on what love for Allah is just as you mentioned in the latter part of your statement. Any words such as saying "we love" allah are inadequate any words in my opinion. What God states in the Qur'an are limited words because he is using the human alphabet in order to help us understand. God being the greatest entity in the universe in relaity is beyond anything said or done in his name. The prophet perhaps being close to this divine entity is revered because people need a tangible figure to get as close to the divine as possible.

My point here is to show that "love" for the prophet should be no greater than we love a dear friend who has done something great for us as you mentioned sister. However in my personal belief I couldn't possibly love the prophet more than my family because my family are physically there for me something the prophet at this point cannot do. We are humans who need physical reaction and attention and sometimes spirituality cannot cover that aspect. Our love for God is definitely great than the prophet's as ytou have mentioned but in my point I'm basically stating the love of God consequently is no different emotion than we already express now.

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