Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: The Trinity is a Pagan Doctrine. Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 11 Next >>
Author Message
AnnieTwo
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 9:58am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

You wrote:" Gen. 22 is a great example of the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son in Typology represented by the sacrifice of Isaac.

If Gen.22 is really a great example of the sacrifice of Jesus, then Jesus should have been sacrifised as a burnt offering by God, who loved, admired and accepted burnt scarifices.

Since Jesus was not laid on a pyre, it cannot be applied to Jesus at all, not even an iota of that thought is valid.

This is something very important:

Gen.22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him." The same God allows Mary's son to be "killed" in a different way, not by the way of a burnt offering.

The example is pointless and incorrect! This is how the "fulfilling scripture" has to go and dig out of the so-called "Unfulfilled Scripture".

<>If God could have stopped Issac from getting slaughtered and burnt, surely God could have rescued Jesus from two pieces of timber!!

    


BMZ,

<>Meaning of Typology:  A type is a representation by one thing of another. Adam was a type of Christ and so was Isaac.

God could and did stop Isaac from being sacrificed.  God could have saved Jesus, but didn't.

Annie
IP IP Logged
AbRah2006
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 10:07am
AnnieTwo claims that the Trinity is mentioned in
1)Gen. 1:1,26; Job 33:4; 2)  Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Ex. 6:2-3; 24:9-11; 33:20; Num. 12:6-8; Psalm 104:30;  23)Gen. 19:24 with Amos 4:10-11; Is.48:16

My response: I have checked the verses above and I find that they have nothing to do with the Trinity. For example:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Amose 4:10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
IP IP Logged
AbRah2006
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 11:01am

AnnieTwo's statement: Nevertheless, following is a chart that exemplifies many of the themes that were revealed in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New.  It is easy to see that there is no need at all for the Christians to borrow from any source outside the Old Testament. 

------------------------------------------------------------ --

My response: Christians claim that what is unique in the case of Jesus, is that he is the only begotten Son of God, while the others are merely “sons of God”. However, God is recorded as saying to Prophet David, in Psalms 2:7, “I will tell the decree of the Lord: He said to me, ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you.’ ”

My comment: How could God contradict His own Word? Does God change His own mind? Had God forgotten about what He had said to Jesus and David?  God is the All Wise so God will not contradict Himself! So who did corrupt the Bible into a lie? Answer: The keepers of the Bible!

The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Qur'an, which is considered to be the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112, which reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”.

Jesus is not the son of God for Jesus is the son of Mary. That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing. He but says to it "Be". and it is. (Quran 19:34-5).

The Bible itself calls Jesus the son of man so many times throughout the Bible to prove that Jesus is a human being and Jesus is not the son of God.

Furthermore, verses like John 3:2, John 6:14, John 7:40, Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16 and 24:19 confirm that Jesus accepted the title of teacher, Prophet and called himself the son of man in Matthew 8:20, 12:40, 17:9 & 12, 26:24, Luke 9:26, 22:48, 22:69, and 24:7. The most conclusive verse that says Jesus is the son (servant) of man is Mark 14:26 where Jesus is mentioning the Day of Reckoning. Jesus specifically said we would see the son of man, not the Son of God, sitting in the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 

Since the Hebrews believed that God is One, and had neither wife nor children in any literal sense, it is obvious that the expression “son of God” merely meant to them “Servant of God”; one who, because of his faithful service, was close and dear to God, as a son is to a father.

Consequently, the use of the term “son of God” should only be understood from the Semitic symbolic sense of a “servant of God”, and not in the pagan sense of a literal offspring of God. In the four Gospels, Jesus is recorded as saying: Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.”(Matthew 5:9)

Qur’an clarifies that Jesus’ virgin birth did not change the state of his humanity “Surely, the example of Jesus, in Allah’s sight, is like that of Adam.  He created him from dust and said: ‘Be!’ and he was.” (Qur’an, 3:59).

The act of begetting is a physical act and such act is against God’s nature. The Qur’an 19:35 says: "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is." (Maryam  19:35)

Therefore God has no sons for God is One and Only: Moses says "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4) , Jesus says "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29) and the prophet Muhammad says "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
IP IP Logged
AnnieTwo
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 11:08am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie:

You wrote: "Paul is saying that there is one God and there is only one God.  Paul is saying that there is one mediator between God and men and that is Messiah Jesus.   Paul is saying that Messiah Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all."

Let me re-write it for the sake of discussion:

"Paul is saying that there is one God and there is only one God.  Paul is saying that there is one mediator between God and men and that is Messiah Jesus. Paul is saying that Messiah Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all."

I do believe that I already said that.  Yes, Paul is saying there is only one God.  This is what Christians believe whether trinitarian or not.  Yes, Paul is saying that Messiah Jesus is the mediator between God and man.  Yes, Paul is saying the Messiah Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all, repeating what Jesus said of himself.

<>Couldn't the Messiah Jesus save all by living, instead of "dying" unnecessarily, like the Living God saved Isaac? Paul also specifically used the term "Man" for Jesus. Did Paul not?

Yes, of course, Messiah Jesus could have saved all by living.  All people would have had to do is sin no more, repent, accept his message and follow him, but if you read the New Testament you will find that he was rejected by many.

Yes, Paul used the word "man."  Jesus was a man.  Is this news to you?

 
IP IP Logged
AnnieTwo
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 11:14am
AbRah2006,

You said:

The act of begetting is a physical act and such act is against God�s nature. The Qur�an 19:35 says: "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is." (Maryam  19:35)

Therefore God has no sons for God is One and Only

God doesn't have sons in the literal sense.  Jesus is not God's son in the literal sense.  I agree with the Surah above.

The article I posted was to show where some of the Christian beliefs come from for
Cyril who has a problem with links.  I will not discuss anything in the article.


IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 10:03pm

Annie,

This is progress: "Yes, Paul used the word "man."  Jesus was a man.  Is this news to you?"

Good! Shall we then leave Jesus as no more than a man? No, it was never a news to me for I knew Jesus was always a man.

IP IP Logged
AbRah2006
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

This is progress: "Yes, Paul used the word "man."  Jesus was a man.  Is this news to you?"

Good! Shall we then leave Jesus as no more than a man? No, it was never a news to me for I knew Jesus was always a man.

My response: Yes we Muslims know that Jesus is a man and he is a great prophet of Allah. Jesus is neither God nor the son of God according to the Holy Quran! I am glad to know that AnnieTwo admits that God has no sons! Thank you AnnieTwo and I appreciate this statement. May Allah the All Merciful God guides you to His true path...Ameen.



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
IP IP Logged
AbRah2006
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2006 at 4:19am

Former Christian Priests and Missionaries who have Embraced Islam: Abdullah al-Faruq Formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church says:

1) "Not a single one could explain how Jesus was supposedly God, and how, at the same time, he was supposedly the Father, Son and Holy Ghost wrapped up into one and yet was not a part of the trinity. Several preachers finally had to concede that they did not understand it but that we were simply required to believe it."

2)"Cases of adultery and fornication went unpunished. Some Christian preachers were hooked on drugs and had destroyed their lives and the lives of their families. Leaders of some churches were found to be homosexuals. There were pastors even guilty of committing adultery with the young daughters of other church members. All of this coupled with a failure to receive answers to what I thought were valid questions was enough to make me seek a change. That change came when I accepted a job in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia."

3) "I was then given a video cassette of a debate between Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and Reverend Jimmy Swaggart. After seeing the debate I immediately became a Muslim." (To view this debate click here – requires RealPlayer). It is an interesting debate! 

4) "I was taken to the office of Shaykh 'Abdullah bin 'Abdul-'Azeez bin Baz to officially declare my acceptance of Islam." 

5) "It is my prayer that Allah will forgive us all of our ignorance and guide us to the path leading to Paradise. All praise is due to Allah. May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon His last messenger, Prophet Muhammad, his family, companions, and those following true guidance."


 



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 11 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com