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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: The Trinity is a Pagan Doctrine. Post Reply Post New Topic
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 8:49am

AbRah,

Good quote and it is a solid one from paul.

"In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Paul, though I don't like him personally, at least has always been honest and bold with that statement. He never mixes Jesus with God. Although Paul only calls him son of God, he always maintains that Jesus was a man who could intercede with God. BUt for sure, Paul has never called him the GOD. This is a better explanation than trinity.

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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 8:58am
Originally posted by AnnieTwo

[QUOTE=AbRah2006]

AnnieTwo's statement: "Trinity" to me means that God interacts with us through the Father and through the incarnate Word and through his Spirit.

It really is very simple.

------------------------------------------------------------ -----

My response: Let us compare AnnieTwo's statement above with Paul's statement: 

In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

AnnieTwo's statement: "Trinity" to me means that God interacts with us through the Father and through the incarnate Word and through his Spirit.

Clearly one of these people or both AnnieTwo and Paul are wrong , either way, it’s a contradiction.



There is no contradiction between me and Paul.

My response:  Why can't you read and admit that it is a contradiction? Your statement and Paul's clearly contradict each other! So this is how Christians condone the contradictions of the Bible!
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 12:24pm
AbRah2006,

There is no contradiction between me and Paul.

My response:  Why can't you read and admit that it is a contradiction? Your statement and Paul's clearly contradict each other! So this is how Christians condone the contradictions of the Bible!

All Christians believe that Jesus was a man but that is not all that he was.

1 Timothy 2:

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Paul is saying that there is one God and there is only one God.  Paul is saying that there is one mediator between God and men and that is Messiah Jesus.   Paul is saying that Messiah Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all.

Do you believe what Paul said?  Jesus said he was Messiah Jesus and that he would die as a ransom for many and Paul is confirming that.

There is no contradiction.

Annie



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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 6:32pm

I quote AnnieTwo's statement: There is no contradiction between me and Paul.

My response:

Let me quote your statement: AnnieTwo's statement: "Trinity" to me means that God interacts with us through the Father and through the incarnate Word and through his Spirit.

And Paul's:

In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 

It seems to me that according to you AnnieTwo the mediator between God and men are the the Father, the incarnate Word and  his Spirit.
However Paul says that the mediator between God and men is THE MAN Christ Jesus!

Can't you see the  contradiction between you and Paul? It is very clear that one of these people or both AnnieTwo and Paul are wrong , either way, it’s a contradiction!

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Cyril

Annie

I am sorry but I discuss only "man to man (or woman)" not with a link.


Are the New Testament themes found
in the Old Testament?

 

      The concepts in the New Testament were not derived out of thin air.  Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets."  What is mentioned in the New Testament is revealed in the Old Testament either clearly or in types and figures.  Gen. 22 is a great example of the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son in Typology represented by the sacrifice of Isaac.
     Some critics of Christianity state that Christianity borrowed its concepts from pagan sources like Mitrha, Osiris, Apollonius, etc.  Admittedly, there are similarities in some pagan religions with Christianity, but that does not mean Christian writers borrowed from them any more than similarities between Communism and Democracy mean one is from another.  Similarities abound in many religions.  Hinduism has moral statements similar to Christianity as does Taoism.  But they are unrelated to each other.
     There are, however, several reasons working against the idea that the people who wrote the New Testament copied ideas from pagan myths.  First of all, the writers of the New Testament were Jews.  As Jews they would have nothing to do with paganism in any form.  They knew specifically that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament which is why they followed Him. Second, the Old Testament has almost all the New Testament themes from which a devout Jew would refer when writing the New Testament.  Third, there is no proof at all that the New Testament writers borrowed from pagan sources and incorporated them into the New Testament.  It is up to the critics to supply reasonable evidence for this if they want to hold the position.  Just saying it happened doesn't mean anything.  Fourth, so what if there are similarities?  What does it prove?  If two writers in the same city both write similar articles about the President of the U.S., does it mean one used another's concepts?  Not at all.  Similarities happen all the time when dealing with similar subjects.  Besides, it makes sense that common themes would be around an area at the same time in history when all nations served various gods.  Undoubtedly, some similarities will occur, but that doesn't mean one was borrowed from another.  Finally, there is another possibility worth examining.  The concepts of redemption, the incarnation, resurrection, etc., are prophesied in the Old Testament and these documents were around for hundreds and hundreds of years.  It is quite possible that if any borrowing was done, it was done by the pagans who incorporated Old Testament concepts since these documents existed prior to many of these pagan myths. 
      Nevertheless, following is a chart that exemplifies many of the themes that were revealed in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New.  It is easy to see that there is no need at all for the Christians to borrow from any source outside the Old Testament.

John 5:39, "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me."

Theme Old Testament
Reference
New Testament
fulfilled in Jesus
Ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God Ps. 110:1 Matt 26:64; Acts 7:55-60; Eph. 1:20
Atonement by blood Lev. 17:11 Heb. 9:22
Baptism Exodus 40:12-15; Lev. 16:4; Gen. 17:10; Ezek. 36:25 Matt. 3:16; 28:19; Col. 2:11-12; Heb. 10:22
Begotten Son, Jesus is Psalm 2:7 Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5
Creative work Gen. 1; 1:26 John 1:1-3; Col. 1:16-17
Crucifixion Psalm 22:11-18; Zech. 12:10 Luke 23:33-38
Damnation and Salvation Dan. 12:2 Matt. 25:46
Eternal Son Micah 5:1-2; Psalm 2:7 Heb. 1:5; 5:5
First and Last Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12 Rev. 1:8,17; 22:13
God among His people Isaiah 9:6; 40:3 John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Matt. 3:3
Incarnation of God 1)Ex 3:14; 2)Ps. 45:6 Isaiah 9:6; Zech. 12:10 1)John 8:58; 1:1,14; 2)Heb. 1:8; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:1-3
Monotheism Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5 John 10:30; Eph. 4:5
Only Begotten Son Gen. 22:2.  See Typology John 3:16; Heb. 11:7
Priesthood of Jesus Psalm 110:4 Heb. 6:20; 7:25
Resurrection of Christ Psalm 16:9-10; 49:15; Is. 26:19 John 2:19-21
Return of Christ Zech. 14:1-5; Mic. 1:3-4 Matt. 16:27-28; Acts 1:11; 3:20
Sacrifice of the Son Gen. 22.  See Typology Heb. 9:27
Salvation by grace 1)Gen. 12:3; 2)15:6; Hab. 2:4 1)Gal. 3:8-11; 2)Rom. 4:9
Sin offering Ex. 30:10; Lev. 4:3 Rom. 8:3; Heb. 10:18; 13:11
Sin offering made outside the camp Ex. 29:14 Heb. 13:12-13
Sin offering without defect Ex. 12:5; Lev. 22:20; Deut. 17:1 Heb. 9:14
Son of God Psalm 2:7 John 5:18
Substitutionary Atonement Isaiah 53:6-12; Lev. 6:4-10,21 Matt. 20:28; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18;
Trinity 1)Gen. 1:1,26; Job 33:4; 2)  Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Ex. 6:2-3; 24:9-11; 33:20; Num. 12:6-8; Psalm 104:30;  23)Gen. 19:24 with Amos 4:10-11; Is.48:16 1)John 1:1-3; 2)John 1:18; 6:46; 3)Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14
Virgin Birth Isaiah 7:14 Matt. 1:25
Worship of Jesus Psalm 97:7 Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 8:14am

Annie,

You wrote:" Gen. 22 is a great example of the sacrifice of Jesus, the Son in Typology represented by the sacrifice of Isaac.

If Gen.22 is really a great example of the sacrifice of Jesus, then Jesus should have been sacrifised as a burnt offering by God, who loved, admired and accepted burnt scarifices.

Since Jesus was not laid on a pyre, it cannot be applied to Jesus at all, not even an iota of that thought is valid.

This is something very important:

Gen.22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him." The same God allows Mary's son to be "killed" in a different way, not by the way of a burnt offering.

The example is pointless and incorrect! This is how the "fulfilling scripture" has to go and dig out of the so-called "Unfulfilled Scripture".

If God could have stopped Issac from getting slaughtered and burnt, surely God could have rescued Jesus from two pieces of timber!!


    



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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 8:24am

Annie:

You wrote: "Paul is saying that there is one God and there is only one God.  Paul is saying that there is one mediator between God and men and that is Messiah Jesus.   Paul is saying that Messiah Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all."

Let me re-write it for the sake of discussion:

"Paul is saying that there is one God and there is only one God.  Paul is saying that there is one mediator between God and men and that is Messiah Jesus. Paul is saying that Messiah Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all."

Couldn't the Messiah Jesus save all by living, instead of "dying" unnecessarily, like the Living God saved Isaac? Paul also specifically used the term "Man" for Jesus. Did Paul not?



 

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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2006 at 9:29am

AnnieTwo's statement: Nevertheless, following is a chart that exemplifies many of the themes that were revealed in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New.  It is easy to see that there is no need at all for the Christians to borrow from any source outside the Old Testament. 

My response:

Where does the Trinity come from?

From the line of Shem, Noah's other son, Abraham was called out of "Ur of the Chaldees" (Genesis 11:31; 12:1,2), the ancient Babylonian empire. His descendants were given the revelation of God by Moses from Mount Sinai. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4). No Hebrew scripture supports the idea of a trinity god. Some verses have been pressed into use by Trinitarians, but without success. For example, in the creation account, Genesis says, "God [elohim, plural.] created the heavens and the earth" (1:1). However, the plural does not have to do with number; it is "plentitude of might" (Pentateuch & Haftorahs, The Soncino Press). In any case, the verb "created" is singular, and would not indicate two gods, let alone three. Even the New Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament (Vol. XIV, 306). And the world renown "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia" says, under the article on the Trinity in it, "The term 'Trinity' is NOT a biblical term....In point of fact, the doctrine of the Trinity is a purely revealed doctrine...As the doctrine of the Trinity is indiscoverable by reason, so it is incapable of proof from reason." (International Encyclopedia of the Bible," Vol. 5, (page 3012)).

While he walked the earth, Jesus clearly acknowledged, "My Father is greater than I" (The New Chain-Reference Bible, 4 th. Ed. (King James Bible), (page 116 in NT, John 14:29)) and that it was his Father who sent him, "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me" (The Holy Bible (King James Bible), American Bible Society, NY (page 10 in NT, Matthew 10:40)). He consistently acknowledged God as the source of power for his miracles and finally implored his Father, "yet not my will but thine be done." (The Holy Bible, The Douay Version of the OT-The Confraternity Edition of the NT, John C. Winton Co., Philadelphia, Pa., (page 109 in NT, St. Luke 22:42)) he be the one sent and also the Sender and why would he pray to himself that not his will but His other will be done? It seems the Trinitarians only answer, "It's a mystery"?

If the trinity is supposed to be an unexplainable "mystery," why do the apostles always talk about revealing mysteries to Christians? "I would not have you ignorant of this mystery [about Jewish blindness] (1 the revelation of the mystery (The Holy Bible, The Douay Version of the OT-The Confraternity Edition of the NT, John C. Winton Co., Philadelphia, Pa., (page 210 in NT, Romans 16:25)) the mystery hidden God hath revealed ( 1 Corinthians 2:7) Behold I show you a mystery (The Holy Bible, The Douay Version of the OT-The Confraternity Edition of the NT, John C. Winton Co., Philadelphia, Pa., (page 227 in NT,1 Corinthians 15:51)) "having made known the mystery of his will" (The New Chain-Reference Bible, 4 th. Ed. (King James Bible), (page 202 in NT, Ephesians 1:9)) "to make known the mystery of Christ" (The New Chain-Reference Bible, 4 th. Ed. (King James Bible), (page 206 in NT, Ephesians 6:19)) "make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" (The New Chain-Reference Bible, 4 th. Ed. (King James Bible), (page 210 in NT, Colossians 1:27)), etc. So how did the Christian Church accept a mystery of a trinity?

I repeat my question:

Where does the Trinity come from since no Hebrew scripture supports the idea of a trinity god. ?



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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