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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: The Trinity is a Pagan Doctrine. Post Reply Post New Topic
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AbRah2006
 
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:35pm

[QUOTE=Cyril]Bmzsp

Your quote: "Basically, the Trinity concept was borrowed from the various European Gentiles, coined and shined and presented to please all the Gentiles who had different kinds of trinities earlier."


The Trinity concept was most probably borrowed from pagan religions when Christianism emerged from Judaism.
One of its element, the virgin birth of Jesus, was also borrowed by Christianism from paganism and by the Quran from Christianism.
So why scoff at Christianism for their borrowing?

------------------------------------------------------------ -----

My response:

Quran 16:36 For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), "Serve God, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom God guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).

Surah 3 - Ali 'Imran - THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN

003.001 Alif, Lam, Mim.

003.002 God! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.

003.003 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgement between right and wrong).

Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) (Salallahu ‘alayhi wa salam, meaning: May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was Allâh's  great Prophet and Messenger   like Jesus, the Son of Mary.  The Prophet's mission, however, is universal. Allah (S.W.T.)    (Subhanahu wa ta’ala, meaning: the Exalted, Most Glorious) tells mankind that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) is no more than a Messenger (Qur’an 3: 144), the unlettered Prophet who believes in Him and His Words (Qur’an 7: 158).  He is the Seal of the Prophets and the true universal Messenger of Allâh to the whole mankind (Qur’an 33: 40). Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty, makes this very clear:

"We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but as a universal (Messenger) to men giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin) but most men understand not." (Qurân 34: 28)

For our guidance, Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty commands us to believe and obey His Messenger (s.a.w.s.):

"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): “If you (really) love Allâh then follow me (i.e. accept Islâmic Monotheism, follow the Qur’ªn and the Sunnah), Allâh will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” Say (O Muhammad): “Obey Allâh and the Messenger (Muhammad).” But if they turn away, then Allâh does not like the disbelievers." (Qur’an 3: 31)

"O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Rabb (Sustainer). So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to Allâh belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And Allâh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise." (Qurân 4: 170)

"O you who believe! Obey Allâh, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Qurân 47: 33)

Question: Why did God send Muhammad and the Quran to all mankind after Moses, the Torah, Jesus and injeel etc?

We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty did send the Torah (Old Testament or the Law) to the Jews, but they then corrupted this Holy Message;  "We (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences arose therein:  had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them:  but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it.  (The Noble Quran, 11:110)"  

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time.  But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message.  Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems.  They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe.  That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them.  A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.  That is why "differences arose therein....."   Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.  Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.   (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"  

As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it.  Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus.  Others believe it took 300 years.  In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy.  That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew....." instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew]...." and so on.  Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors.  It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful.  The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others.  The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc... Please visit History of man's corruption in the Bible for more details.  Today, there is no one Bible!.

Allah Almighty warned Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him from the false practices done by Jews and Christians:

"Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: 'The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance.' Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God.  (The Noble Quran, 2:120)"

"They say: 'Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).' Say thou: 'Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:135)"

"Indeed they reject the truth, those that say "God is Christ, the son of Mary." For indeed, Christ said, worship God, who is my God and your God.  (The Holy Quran, 5:72)"

Trinity today, and the corruption of the Torah (The Law sent to the Jews) to prove that the Jews are the best people for all times and all places and the denial of Jesus peace be upon him and the many other false teachings are evidence of the false teachings and practices of the Christians and the Jews.

In general, we Muslims believe that the current Torah and Injil are mixed between the true Words of GOD Almighty and man's corruption.  We also believe that the Bible had more truth in it during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time than what we have today.   That is why Allah Almighty was challenging some of the Jews and the Christians to refer to their Scriptures back then.

Even the Bible says that the Bible would be corrupted into a lie by the its keepers:

In Deuteronomy 31:25-29 Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

The Noble Quran came to CONFIRM the Truth that exists in the Bible.  Allah Almighty NEVER claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine.  Islam is a witness on the Bible.  It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible.  The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it.  Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded.

That is why we Muslims believe in only the parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran.  The parts that contradict the Noble Quran are not the Truth:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge;  That they said (in boast):  'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.'  But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.  Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise.  And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him  (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them.   (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"  

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.  Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.   (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.  (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/que9.htm

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Cyril
 
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Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 1:52am
George

Nobody says Christianity is a pagan religion. Some scholars (and it is also my opinion) say that it borrowed a number of elements from the neighboring pagan religions and integrated them with Judaism.
That is the reason why most of the Jews did not accept Christianism btw.
By its strong monotheistic stance Christianity is not a pagan religion even if it may have adopted pagan beliefs at its origin.
The same can be said of Islam which is definitely not a pagan religion even if it integrated some Arab pagan beliefs.
 
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AbRah2006
 
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 3:20am

My response:

Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity - God being Three-in-One - is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.

 I quote Cyril's statement:The same can be said of Islam which is definitely not a pagan religion even if it integrated some Arab pagan beliefs.

Tell me what the pagan beliefs are!



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 4:28am
Originally posted by Cyril

George

Nobody says Christianity is a pagan religion. Some scholars (and it is also my opinion) say that it borrowed a number of elements from the neighboring pagan religions and integrated them with Judaism.
That is the reason why most of the Jews did not accept Christianism btw.
By its strong monotheistic stance Christianity is not a pagan religion even if it may have adopted pagan beliefs at its origin.
The same can be said of Islam which is definitely not a pagan religion even if it integrated some Arab pagan beliefs.
 


Cyril,

What "pagan" elements do you think Christianity borrowed?  Are you talking about celebrating Christmas or what?  It does not make sense that Jews of all people would incorporate anything pagan into its religion and the majority of the followers of Jesus initially were Jews.

Annie
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 5:13am

Annie,

I think Cyril is referring to the idea of Trinity, which was borrowed from other pagans and Gentiles, like the Greek and the Romans. Trinity was prominent in Mithraism and in Hinduism. In Hinduism, it still is.

BMZ 

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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 5:19am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Annie,

I think Cyril is referring to the idea of Trinity, which was borrowed from other pagans and Gentiles, like the Greek and the Romans. Trinity was prominent in Mithraism and in Hinduism. In Hinduism, it still is.

BMZ 



The Trinity was not borrowed from Mithraism and Hinduism.  The trinity is understood from the Hebrew Scriptures and from what Jesus taught.  Associating the trinity with paganism is not accurate and is mostly another attempt to discredit the Holy Bible.

It can also be claimed that at lot of the rituals of Islam evolved from paganism.  Does that make it so?

Annie
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 5:25am

Excuse me, Annie!

Are you saying that Jesus taught Trinity? There is not a single shred of any evidence that he taught so from the Scriptures.

This idea, suggested by others after he was long gone, was discussed nonstop for 364 years by learned men and only finalised by Augustine's stamping.

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Quote AnnieTwo Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 5:38am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Excuse me, Annie!

Are you saying that Jesus taught Trinity? There is not a single shred of any evidence that he taught so from the Scriptures.

This idea, suggested by others after he was long gone, was discussed nonstop for 364 years by learned men and only finalised by Augustine's stamping.



It depends on what you mean by "Trinity."

Annie
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