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AbRah2006
 
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Topic: The Trinity is a Pagan Doctrine.
    Posted: 26 May 2006 at 1:17am

The Trinity denies the Oneness of God by saying that God is a single Being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a communion of three persons (personae, prosopa): Father (the Source, the Eternal Majesty); the Son (the eternal Logos or Word, incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth; and the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete or advocate). Since the 4th Century AD, in both Eastern and Western Christianity, this doctrine has been stated as "One God in Three Persons," all three of whom, as distinct and co-eternal "persons" or "hypostases," share a single Divine essence, being, or nature.

Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and without the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.

If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:

"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be save must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)

Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father + one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?

It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.

References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at best.

In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and preach to all nations. While the "Great Commission" does make mention of the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text - that is, not the actual words of Jesus - as can be seen by two factors:

  1. Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and
  2. The "Great Commission" found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark 16:15.

The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical test, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.

When controversy over the matter of the Trinity blew up in 318 between two church men from Alexandria - Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his bishop - Emperor Constantine stepped into the fray.

Although Christian dogma was a complete mystery to him, he did realize that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom. When negotiation failed to settle the dispute, Constantine called for the first ecumenical council in Church history in order to settle the matter once and for all.

The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward for anyone who did not hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.

It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion.

Six weeks after the 300 bishops first gathered at Nicea in 325, the doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out. The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Let us compare the Trinity with the pagan beliefs:

 The Christianity Trinity says that God is One in Three Persons but this belief is based on the pagan Trinity .The Pagan Trinity:The "Hecate" goddess of Greek Mythology.An ancient Fertility goddess, also identified with Persephone, as Queen of Hades (underworld), and protector of witches.

The "Hecate" or "Hekate" is characterized as a Trinity, that existed within pagan mythology as a three faced goddess. The three faces represented the "Maiden", the "Matron" (or Mother), and "the "Crone".

The ancient concept of "The Trinity" most certainly affected the decisions of the ancient Roman Catholic church. What better way for Satan to overwhelm the True Hebrew Messianic movement by creating a Pseudo Greek-Roman Messianic movement called Christianity (Anti-Messianism). Trinitarians deny this, but facts are facts.

Idol worship and rituals are at the heart of Hinduism and have tremendous religious significance. All Hindu deities are themselves symbols of the abstract Absolute, and point to a particular aspect of the Brahman. The Hindu Trinity is represented by three godheads: Brahma - the creator, Vishnu - the protector and Shiva - the destroyer.

Jesus had nothing to do with the Trinity that was introduced by a group of corrupt Christian priests of Nicea 325 years after Jesus was gone so Jesus was not there to refute the declaration of the corrupt Christian priests. Why didn't Jesus declare that God was One in Three ?Jesus never said that God was One in Three Persons during his era.

On the contrary Moses, Jesus and Muhammad said that God was One and Only to refute the Trinity. Proofs:

Moses said: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said: "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam. "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God." (Qur'an 5:73)

Suzanne Haneef, in her book WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT ISLAM AND MUSLIMS (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when she says, "But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to believe in." (pp. 183-184)

Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being three separate entities - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical.

Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity - God being Three-in-One - is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.

This is a charge not taken lightly by Christians, however. They, in turn, accuse the Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur'an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verse in the Quran 5:119 most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by the Qur'an as a "member" of the Trinity, is simply not true:

 'And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." '(Quran 5:119)  

 While the Qur'an does condemn both trinitarianism (the Qur'an 4:17) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur'an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur'an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.

In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Qur'an, God's Final Revelations to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a number of eloquent passages:

 "...your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner." (Qur'an 18:110)

"...take not, with God, another object of worship, lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Qur'an 17:39)

...Because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is echoed throughout All His Revealed Scriptures:

"...I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore, serve Me (and no other)..." (Qur'an 21:92)

The Qur'an reminds us of the falsity of all alleged gods. To the worshippers of man-made objects it asks: Do you worship what you have carved yourself” (37:95). “ Or have you taken unto yourself others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves” (Quran 13:16). 

In Islam Jesus is neither God nor the son of God: “ The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not "Three". Refrain; better it is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him -- (He is) above having a son” (Quran 4:171).

The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from Allah Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Qur’an, which is considered the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112 which means:

(Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.) (Quran 112: 1-4)

The final scripture, the Qur’aan, clarifies the issue of worshipping or not worshipping Jesus, by quoting a conversation which will take place between Jesus and God on the Day of Judgement:   'And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." '(Quran 5:119)

There are no other gods worthy of worship but Allah and Muhammad is His last messenger. Who is Allah (God)?

“ He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise” (Quran 59:22-24).

             “ There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious” (Quran 2:255).

Therefore the Trinity doctrine is a pagan belief that rejects the Oneness of God!

( Source: www.sultan.org )



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 4:19am

Basically, the Trinity concept was borrowed from the various European Gentiles, coined and shined and presented to please all the Gentiles who had different kinds of trinities earlier. It worked!

Most of the good Trinitarians here are already more aware of the verses of Qur'aan far more than the verses of their own Scriptures. So, could you quote less please and make your posts short and crisp, please? I have already given you the tips.

BR & Salaam Alaikum

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AbRah2006
 
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 4:58am
[QUOTE=bmzsp]

Basically, the Trinity concept was borrowed from the various European Gentiles, coined and shined and presented to please all the Gentiles who had different kinds of trinities earlier. It worked!

Most of the good Trinitarians here are already more aware of the verses of Qur'aan far more than the verses of their own Scriptures. So, could you quote less please and make your posts short and crisp, please? I have already given you the tips.

-------------------------------------------------------

W/salam to you brother. Thank you for your advice.  

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 5:32am
God is not logical, and a logical God cannot exist as God is unchanging, uncreated, without need etc.  All these attributes are beyond logic, and proven so to Islam by Imam al-Ghazzali. 

God does have a will, and it is this divine will that Christians label the Holy Spirit. 

Abrah, have you ever experienced a spiritual emotion during Hajj/salat/jummah etc.?   I would be surprised if you had not.  There are times in life when one who is spiritually prepared can appreciate the active presence of God.  Those would be identified by Christians as the Holy Spirit. 

Compare to the physical actions in wudu/hajj/salat.  Purely physical actions which bring one closer to God are identified as Jesus, especially when they unite people as these physical prayer activities certainly do.

Muslims have no problem understanding the Christian concept of God the Father.

Christians believe in only one God.  Many, but not all, of us find the Trinity to be a useful way to communicate the different and illogical ways God relates to us. 
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Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 6:27am
Bmzsp

Your quote: "Basically, the Trinity concept was borrowed from the various European Gentiles, coined and shined and presented to please all the Gentiles who had different kinds of trinities earlier."


The Trinity concept was most probably borrowed from pagan religions when Christianism emerged from Judaism.
One of its element, the virgin birth of Jesus, was also borrowed by Christianism from paganism and by the Quran from Christianism.
So why scoff at Christianism for their borrowing?

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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 6:58am
if you really want to go back, maybe we can pick on Zoroastrain   but I don't know if he had a trinity concept thou 
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Quote George Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:38am

AbRah2006,

No Christianity is not a pagan religion.  As I am sure you are aware, the same claims are made against Islam.

Peace

 

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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:39am

Could've fooled me

check out the festivities and history of them, fascinating  and then you'll see  

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