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Message Icon Topic: Is the Bible the Word of God?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:02am

AbRah, when quoting, use the whole scripture....

Abominable Practices

 9"When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[e] anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, 12for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you. 13You shall be blameless before the LORD your God, 14for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this.

It depends on what he considered the "door of his house" maybe it was the gate to the wall around his house....he could have expected a goat to come out or the family dog...maybe a chicken?????  Who knows what his household was like????

But to answer your question.....

Genesis 22

Abraham Tested

 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
      "Here I am," he replied.

 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac (Ishmael?), whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.

Why would this be a test of obedience if God did not hold men to obey him and keep their covenants with him???

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Angela
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:06am
Originally posted by AbRah2006

Answer: Matthew 19:12 .....there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....

So they castrated themselves so that they could go to heaven.

No, they castrated themselves to prevent SIN?  Have you heard of chemical castration?  Its a new attempt to keep men who are repeat sex offenders from continuing to commit crimes.  They are given injections to keep them from having sexual urges.  There are also a number of these men who have undergone voluntary castration to prevent reoffending.  These men wanted to ensure they did not sin by committing fornication.  So they castrated themselves.  Perhaps they felt they were so weak as they would never be able to control themselves otherwise?  Perhaps they were homosexual in desire and were afraid they would act on the impulses or they had some other thing they feared.  But again, this is not a directive or suggestion but a statement that there are those that have done this thing.

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AbRah2006
 
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Angela

[QUOTE=AbRah2006]

Answer: Matthew 19:12 .....there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....

So they castrated themselves so that they could go to heaven.

No, they castrated themselves to prevent SIN?  Have you heard of chemical castration?  Its a new attempt to keep men who are repeat sex offenders from continuing to commit crimes.  They are given injections to keep them from having sexual urges.  There are also a number of these men who have undergone voluntary castration to prevent reoffending.  These men wanted to ensure they did not sin by committing fornication.  So they castrated themselves.  Perhaps they felt they were so weak as they would never be able to control themselves otherwise?  Perhaps they were homosexual in desire and were afraid they would act on the impulses or they had some other thing they feared.  But again, this is not a directive or suggestion but a statement that there are those that have done this thing.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

If you believe that if you castrate yourselves you can go to heaven then you are wrong.Being an eunuch you can still commit sins other than illicit sex such as lie, cheat, murder etc.

I as a Muslim need not to castrate myself because I can control my sexual urges. I never commit any illicit sex because I obey Allah and His messenger Muhammad. I believe that if I obey Allah and His messenger I will go to heaven.

Quran

03.057 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AbRah2006
 
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:34am
Angela's statement:

Genesis 22

Abraham Tested

 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
      "Here I am," he replied.

 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac (Ishmael?), whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.

Why would this be a test of obedience if God did not hold men to obey him and keep their covenants with him???

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

Question: What are your proofs to say that it was Isaac who was about to be sacrificed when God stopped his father?

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:38am

That's not what I said.  I said they must have believed they could not control themselves.  My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body.  You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. 

What part of that don't you understand?  Is there some language barrier????

Commandments  (Fard, Halal.....)

Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct....

These are two different things.

This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening.

 

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Angela
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:42am

Originally posted by AbRah2006

Question: What are your proofs to say that it was Isaac who was about to be sacrificed when God stopped his father?

None, the Hebrew Torah and Old Testament say it was Isaac.  The Quran says it was Ishmael.  To mean it matters little which son it was, the more important part is the lesson in obedience and piety of Abraham.  Correct? 

Bismark wrote a very long article on arguing why it was Ishmael and not Isaac.  I cannot see where it would make much difference in the long run.  Both are sons of Abraham whom he loved very much and both were blessed of God.

The point was to answer your question about sacrificing sons and daughters.  If you look at my response I added in this... (Ishmael?) out of respect for the varience between Jewish/Christian tradition and Islamic tradition.  However, since I was quoting Genesis, it says Isaac.  I could have just as easily used a few ayats from the Quran to emphasize the point.

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AbRah2006
 
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:50am
[QUOTE=Angela]

That's not what I said.  I said they must have believed they could not control themselves.  My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body.  You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. 

What part of that don't you understand?  Is there some language barrier????

Commandments  (Fard, Halal.....)

Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct....

These are two different things.

This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening.

-----------------------------------------------------------

But Matthew 19:12 is a part of the NT and Matthew 19:12 says that there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....What does this mean? It means that they castrated themselves so that they can go to heaven! What will happen if everyman castrate himself? All mankind will vanish after 150 years!

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AbRah2006
 
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2006 at 12:06pm

Quran 37:101 "So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son."

037.102 Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if God so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

037.103 So when they had both submitted their wills (to God), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

037.104 We called out to him "O Abraham!

037.105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

037.106 For this was obviously a trial-

037.107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:

037.108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:

037.109 "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"

037.110 Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

037.111 For he was one of our believing Servants.

Let us read The Opinion Of Ibn Kathīr:

And this son is Ishmael(P) for he is the first son whose good news was brought to Abraham(P). He is older than Isaac according to Muslims and ahl al-kitāb (i.e., the People of the Book) too. It is even said in their Scripture that Ishmael(P) was born when Abraham(P) was 86 years old and Isaac(P) was born when Abraham(P) was 99. In their Scripture as well, God is said to have ordered Abraham(P) to sacrifice his only son and in another version his firstborn. And, at this spot, they inserted falsely the name of Isaac(P) against the text of their very Scripture. The reason they inserted Isaac(P) is that he is their father whereas Ishmael(P) is the father of the Arabs. They added Isaac(P) out of envy and brushed away "only son" by saying that Ishmael(P) and his mother had already been to Makkah. This is a mere [farfetched] explanation since we never say "only son" except to a person who hasn't got but one son. Moreover, the firstborn has got a special place [in the heart of his father] that is not given to the following children and the order to sacrifice him is therefore a greater test. Some knowledgeable people were inclined to say that the sacrificed was Isaac(P). This was reported from some people of the salaf (i.e. people of the previous generations) and it was even reported from some Companions(R) but [this opinion] does not have any bearings from the Book [i.e., the Qur'ān] nor from the Sunnah. I think such opinion was received from the Rabbis of ahl al-Kitāb as is without evidence. Moreover, God's Book is a witness and points to the fact that it is Ishmael(P) because the glad tiding said that the son was patient and that he is the sacrificed. Only afterwards, He said: "And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous." and when the Angels brought the good news of Isaac(P) to Abraham(P) they said: " "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge." And the Most High said: " We gave her [Sarah] glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob." [11:71] meaning that in the lifetime of Abraham(P) and Sarah(P), Isaac(P) will beget a child that he will call Jacob(P) implying that Isaac(P) will have a progeny. We have already explained why it is not possible that Isaac(P) be sacrificed while still a child i.e., because God promised them [Abraham and Sarah] that he will have a progeny. On the other hand, Ishmael(P) was described as forbearing and he fits that description.

[Note that many commentators including Ibn Kathīr believe that "forbearing" does not fit a child, it can at least describe teenagers for they are old enough to be described as such.]

 The great Qur'ānic commentator Ibn Kathīr said that according to the Bible, the sacrificed is said to be Abraham's(P) only son (or his firstborn in some versions), which cannot fit Isaac(P); according to the Qur'ān, the good news of Isaac(P) said that he would have a progeny and consequently God cannot order Abraham(P) to sacrifice Isaac(P) before the promise is fulfilled. Again, according to the Qur'ān, the sacrificed cannot be Isaac.

The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad identified the son who was to be sacrificed as Ishmael and, indeed, the opinion of the traditionalists were also divided on this subject. It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Qurayza tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn cAbd al-cAzīz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj.[4]

The testimony of the former Jew as mentioned hadīth literature as quoted in the Encyclopaedia Judaica reads:

Another proof of our speech [i.e., that sacrificed was Ishmael(P)] is reported by Ibn Ishāq: "Muhammad Ibn Ka'b narrated that cUmar Ibn cAbd al-cAzīz sent for a man who had been a Jew then converted to Islam and showed signs of true Islam. [Before his conversion], he was one of their scholars [i.e., he was a Jewish scholar] So he [i.e., cUmar] asked him: which son did Abraham(P) sacrifice? He replied: 'It is Ishmael(P). By God, O Commander of the Believers, the Jews know that but they envy you - the Arabs.'[5]

The Oxford Companion To The Bible echoes the same position as the Encyclopaedia Judaica.

In Muslim tradition, the Arabs trace their ancestry back to Abraham through Ishmael. Because Ishmael was circumcised (Gen. 17:25), so are most Muslims. And, analogous to Paul's reversal of the figures of Isaac and Ishmael (Gal. 4:24-26), Muslim tradition makes Ishmael rather than Isaac the son Abraham was commanded to sacrifice.[6]

It is quite clear from the statement of Judeo-Christian scholars what the Muslim position is about the person who was sacrificed by Abraham(P).



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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