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Interfaith Dialogue
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amah
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Quote amah Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 8:37pm
Cyril, Hijab is a command from Allah. It is not something that Muslims have "invented" on their own. It is part of our faith and you must respect it even if you do not like it.
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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Quote mariyah Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:23pm

Originally posted by fredifreeloader

abrah - youre right about the west - it is hypocritical.  let me give you a clear example.  2 days ago i was in a bookshop in the city centre.  the "da vinci code" (which i have read, its nothing great, and they say the film, which ive not seen,  is the pits) was on the bookshelves.  so i did a little test, i asked for a copy of the "satanic verses" - the great novel by salman rushdie, which i did not see anywhere on the shelves.  the assistant told me they had it, but they did not put it on the shelves, for fear of offending muslims - they kept it through the back -   thats the west for you, totally hypocritical.  its ok to offend the holy faith of Christ, but not islam.  they say theyre free, but theyre already in the bondage of shariah law.  needless to say, ill be taking the matter further (not that i expect to get far with the idiots in charge of this place)

BAH you are showing signs of bigotry and hypocrisy yourselves. If you protested more loudly, they would put Da Vinci Code on the back shelf also. You "Christians" in the US do not make enough noise to let the world know that you object to the abuse allleged to the messiah Jesus as they are in the movie, your retailer wants to make his 'big bucks" off the book! Boycott the retailer that sells the book! What is more important, the mistreatment of the meaning of the Christ or the almighty dollar? Christians are the ones that bomb abortion clinics: please get your head out of the sand! Please do not come to an Islamic forum and bash Islam! YOu have your own forums!

"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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mariyah
 
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Quote mariyah Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:32pm

Originally posted by Cyril

Angel

You should study a little bit of Muslim culture.
The home is the domain of women and the street the domain of men. Women must not be seen by strangers. That does not happen when they are secluded behind walls. When they go out in the street they remain secluded behind they veils which can be compared to the walls of their home.

Where do you get your information? You are writing on presumptions, not facts. Can you quote your sources of information?

 

"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 2:35am
I get so much response to my remarks on the veil that a moderator should transfer us on a new thread as this one is supposed to be on the Da Vinci Code.

Mishmish

You say that God orders women to cover themselves and be modest. I say that not only God orders that but most cultures even pagan ones (Romans and Greek for example). My wife always walks around properly dressed and wears no veil. A veil is not the only requisite for modesty. Only you are saying that a woman who chooses to be covered must be oppressed. My wife does not feel oppressed.

You say that the Quran is the Word of God. That is your belief and it is not the belief of hundreds million inhabitants of the West. They think on the contrary that the Quran is a human fabrication. So they deduct that the obligation for women to go around under a more or less large cloth is an obligation invented by men against women.

In Europe we do not base our ideas only on religious ones but on several principles that we think are important. One of them is the equality between human beings and especially between men and women. So we accept religions only when they do not oppose our basic rules of conduct in society.




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amah
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Quote amah Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 2:48am
Cyril,

Be it hijab or Quran or Islam, if you do not believe it, do not take it. But does your religion teach you to criticize it????

Are you here to learn about Islam or throw dirt on us? You will not be allowed to insult our religion or anything associated with it.

Please read the guidelines if you haven't so far.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4386& ;PN=1

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ;PN=1

Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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AbRah2006
 
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 3:53am

The Quran, the Muslim's holy scripture, clearly enjoins Muslim men and women to dress and behave modestly. Muslim women are specifically instructed to cover their heads when in the presence of non-mahrem (potentially marriageable) men: 

 Surah Al-Nur (the Light) (24:31) in the Quran states: "They (the believing women) should draw their head coverings over their bosoms...". . Surah Al-Ahzab (33:59) states: "O Prophet [PBUH] Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should put on their outer garments; that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested."

Both of the above Quranic references instruct the Muslim woman to cover herself with a large, loose overcoat (jilbab) and full head covering (khimar) so that no provocative part of her body will be visible. Her modest appearance would MAKE IT CLEAR TO EVERYONE THAT SHE IS A CHASTE, BELIEVING WOMAN, and no one is to molest her or sexually exploit her.

 let us shed some light on what is considered in the west as the greatest symbol of women's oppression and servitude, the veil or the head cover. Is it true that there is no such thing as the veil in the Judaeo-Christian tradition? let's set the record straight.

According to Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University) in his book 'The Jewish woman in Rabbinic literature', it was the custom of Jewish women to go out in public with a head covering which, sometimes, even covered the whole face leaving one eye free. He quotes some famous ancient Rabbis saying," It is not like the daughters of Israel to walk out with heads uncovered" and "Cursed be the man who lets the hair of his wife be seen....a woman who exposes her hair for self-adornment brings poverty."

Rabbinic law forbids the recitation of blessings or prayers in the presence of a bareheaded married woman since uncovering the woman's hair is considered "nudity". Dr. Brayer also mentions that "During the Tannaitic period the Jewish woman's failure to cover her head was considered an affront to her modesty. When her head was uncovered she might be fined four hundred zuzim for this offense."

Dr. Brayer also explains that veil of the Jewish woman wasn't always considered a sign of modesty. Sometimes, the veil symbolized a state of distinction and luxury rather than modesty. The veil personified the dignity and superiority of noble women. It, also, represented a woman's inaccessibility as a sanctified possession of her husband. It is clear in the Old Testament that uncovering a woman's head was a great disgrace and that's why the priest had to uncover the suspected adulteress in her trial by ordeal (Numbers 5:16-18).

What about the Christian tradition? It is well known that Catholic Nuns have been covering their heads for hundreds of years, but that's not all. St. Paul in the New Testament made some very interesting statements about the veil," Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head - it is just as though her head were shaved.

If a woman doesn't cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man didn't come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (I Corinthians 11:3-10)

St Paul's rationale for veiling women is that the veil represents a sign of authority of the man, who is the image and glory of God, over the woman who was created from and for the man. St. Tertullian in his famous treatise 'On The Veiling Of Virgins' wrote," Young women, you wear your veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church, you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers..."

Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church today, there is a law that require women to cover their heads in church. Some Christian denominations, such as the Amish and the Mennonites for example, keep their women veiled to the present day. The reason for the veil, as offered by their Church leaders, is "The head covering is a symbol of woman's subjection to the man and to God" : The same logic introduced by St. Paul in the New Testament.

From all the above evidence, it is obvious that Islam didn't invent the head cover, but Islam endorsed it. The Quran urges the believing men and women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty and then urges the believing women to extend their head covers to cover the neck and the bosom "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (24:30,31).

The Quran is quite clear that the veil is an essential part of a recipe designed for the purposes of modesty, but why modesty? The Quran is still clear "O prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies (when abroad) so that they should be known and not molested" (33:59). This is the whole point, modesty is prescribed to protect women from molestation or simply, modesty is protection.

Thus, the only purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil in the Jewish tradition, is not a sign of luxury and distinction of some noble married women.The Islamic veil is only a sign of modesty with the sole purpose of protecting women, all women.

The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better safe than sorry. In fact, the Quran is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of unchastity will be severely punished," And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors"(24:4).

Compare this strict Quranic attitude with the extremely lax punishment for rape in the Bible " If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished? The man who only paid a fine for rape, or the girl who is forced to marry the man who raped her and live with him until he dies? Another question that also should be asked is this: which is more protective of women, the Quranic strict attitude or the Biblical lax attitude?

Some people, especially in the West, would tend to ridicule the whole argument of modesty for protection. Their argument is that the best protection is the spread of education, civilised behaviour, and self restraint. We would say: Fine but not enough. If 'civilization' is enough protection, then why is it that women in North America, dare not walk alone in a dark street - or even across an empty parking lot ? If Education is the solution, then why is it that a respected university like ours has a 'walk home service' for female students on campus? If self restraint is the answer, then why are cases of sexual harassment in the workplace on the news media every day? A sample of those accused of sexual harassment, in the last few years, includes: Navy officers, Managers, University professors, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, and the President of the United States! I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's office at Queen's University:

  • In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
  • 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives",
  • 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
  • 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university, and
  • A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get caught."
  • SEXUAL ASSAULT in USA: Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.
Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow even worse day after day and , unfortunately, women alone will be paying the price. Therefore, a society like France which expels young women from schools because of their modest dress is, in the end, simply harming itself.

THE BENEFITS OF HIJAB (COVERING) FOR WOMEN

For Muslim women, COVERING THE HEAD IS NOT THE SIGN OF DEGRADATION or oppression. It is a commandment from Allah, who is not male or female, and thus, would not discriminate against women, a segment of His creation.

Rather, HEAD-COVERING IS A SIGN OF PURITY AND DIGNITY. It highlights the Muslim woman as a pure, chaste woman and sets her apart from the immoral behavior associated with women who dress immodestly.

The HIJAB IS A SORT OF "SCREEN" BETWEEN THE CHASTE MUSLIM WOMAN AND THE EVIL THAT EXISTS IN THE WORLD. When a woman wears a hijab she is less likely to be harassed by men with lusty motives; SHE IS LESS LIKELY TO BE EXPLOITED FOR HER BEAUTY AND FEMINITY. 

The Hijab allows a woman to move about outside the confines of her home WITH HER ATTENTION ON THE TASKS SHE HAS SET OUT TO DO. The Muslim woman does not try to impress anyone but Allah when outside of her home. She is not concerned if men find her attractive, or if people are impressed because she has the latest fashions, or the newest hairstyle. She leaves her home as a SELF-CONFIDENT PART OF HUMAN RACE, not as a fashion-plate seeking stares and adoration in order to gain self-esteem. 

The hijab cuts down on competition among women. How many people in the West sacrifice financial savings and health in order to have plastic surgery - in a desperate attempt to meet up to an unrealistic standard of beauty. IN ISLAM, WOMEN ARE APPRECIATED FOR THEIR KNOWLEDGE, PIETY AND CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY. When women wear hijab one finds that the most beautiful women are not necessarily the most popular. Rather, a woman is assessed for her mind, and not just superficial physical traits.

The Quran, the Muslim's holy scripture, clearly enjoins Muslim men and women to dress and behave modestly. Muslim women are specifically instructed to cover their heads when in the presence of non-mahrem (potentially marriageable) men: 

 Surah Al-Nur (the Light) (24:31) in the Quran states: "They (the believing women) should draw their head coverings over their bosoms...". . Surah Al-Ahzab (33:59) states: "O Prophet [PBUH] Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should put on their outer garments; that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested."



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 4:26am

Cyril wrote: 

"Only you are saying that a woman who chooses to be covered must be oppressed."

No, you said that a woman who is covered must be oppressed.

You also said that people find it offensive. 

I said just the opposite.

I also showed you the verses in the Bible that state women must cover. Covering is not something ordered by God in the Quran only, but in the books of all the monotheistic religions.

Ignoring the Word of God is your choice, not mine.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2006 at 4:58am

Cyril’s statement: You say that God orders women to cover themselves and be modest. I say that not only God orders that but most cultures even pagan ones (Romans and Greek for example).

 

My response: Therefore it is an acceptable practice for women to cover their hairs and bodies!

 

Cyril’s statement: My wife always walks around properly dressed and wears no veil. A veil is not the only requisite for modesty. Only you are saying that a woman who chooses to be covered must be oppressed. My wife does not feel oppressed.

 

My response: You yourself admit that veil is a requisite for modesty. I quote your statement: ‘A veil is not the only requisite for modesty’.

Cyril’s statement:  You say that the Quran is the Word of God. That is your belief and it is not the belief of hundreds million inhabitants of the West. They think on the contrary that the Quran is a human fabrication. So they deduct that the obligation for women to go around under a more or less large cloth is an obligation invented by men against women.

My response: There are 1.6 billions of Muslims all over the world and they say that Quran is the Word of God. They believe that Quran is not a human fabrication for Allah is the Author of the holy Quran. The Quran, the Muslim's holy scripture, clearly enjoins Muslim men and women to dress and behave modestly. Muslim women are specifically instructed to cover their heads when in the presence of non-mahrem (potentially marriageable) men: 

 Surah Al-Nur (the Light) (24:31) in the Quran states: "They (the believing women) should draw their head coverings over their bosoms...". . Surah Al-Ahzab (33:59) states: "O Prophet [PBUH] Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should put on their outer garments; that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested."

 

Cyril’s statement: In Europe we do not base our ideas only on religious ones but on several principles that we think are important. One of them is the equality between human beings and especially between men and women. So we accept religions only when they do not oppose our basic rules of conduct in society.

My response:  Your basic rules are based on secularism and Secularism refers to a belief that many human activities and decisions should be free from religious interference. For example, a society deciding whether to promote condom use might consider the issues of disease prevention, family planning, and biblical righteousness. A secularist would argue that the religious issues are irrelevant to the decision.

In studies of religion, modern Western societies are generally recognized as secular. Generally, there is near-complete freedom of religion (one may believe in any religion or none at all, with little legal or social sanction). In the West, it is believed religion does not dictate political decisions, though the moral views originating in religious traditions remain important in political debate in some countries, such as Canada, France and others. (see Laïcité), religious references are considered out-of-place in mainstream politics. Religious influence is also largely minimised in the public sphere, and religion no longer holds the same importance in people's lives as it used to.

Cyril’s statement: So we accept religions only when they do not oppose our basic rules of conduct in society.

My response: Do you Cyril know the definition of secularism? Secularity is the state of being free from religious or spiritual qualities. For instance, eating a meal, playing a game, or bathing are examples of secular activities, because there is nothing inherently religious about them. Saying a prayer or visiting a place of worship are examples of non-secular activities. An aproximate synonym for secular is worldly.

Secularism refers to a belief that many human activities and decisions should be free from religious interference. A secularist would argue that the religious issues are irrelevant to the decision.

Question: How will  you accept religions when your secularism reject them?

Do you know that secularism is created by the Western people as a reaction to the oppressive role of the churches that abused and degraded the states and Christians during the Dark Age of Europe?



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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