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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 2:36am

Cyril wrote:

"The Muslim veil is an offence to people who respect the dignity of women."

I am a woman and I am not offended by the hijab, I hold my dignity extremely high. So high in fact that I find it offensive for anyone to believe that to have equal rights and "dignity" a woman must be half naked and shameless. Strange, I find it offensive that in the "free" West, 13 year old girls run around showing most of their bodies to get attention. How strange to be offended by a covered head and not by an uncovered body.

Cyril, the Bible states:

I Corinthians: 11:5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

11:6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

11:13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered?

Have Christians fallen so far from their Word of God that they find it offensive? Did Paul, supposedly speaking for God disrespect the dignity of women in the verses of I Corinthians? Do you find Catholic women who cover to pray offensive? What of Orthodox Jewish women who wear the veil? When did it become offensive for a woman to have modesty and self-respect?



Edited by Mishmish
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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AbRah2006
 
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 3:02am

Cyril's statement: 
You are mentioning rights (in the plural) of Muslims to practise their religion that are supposedly abused by Christians. In the rest of your posts those rights become only one, the covering of the hair by Muslim women.

Answer: I will give you more examples soon.

Cyril's statement: In every country people of whatever religion are supposed to respect the laws and their fellow citizens.
The Belgian law forbids to walk around with a masked face. So the chador is forbidden.
French law forbids religious signs at school. So the Muslim veil for schoolgirls is forbidden.

Answer: Therefore the Western nations such as Belgium and French do not respect the religious freedom.

Cyril's statement: The Muslim veil is an offence to people who respect the dignity of women.

Answer: Are you joking? 

That means the Western people do not respect the religious freedom of Muslims.

Do you mean that Christian nuns who cover hairs are an offence to people who respect the dignity of women. What about the naked women or girls who parade to attract attention of men in a beauty contest? It seems to be like a bunch of naked cows being inspected by a bunch of men in the market. Do the cows have dignity to look after? I am not saying the Western women are animals. They are human beings!

Cyril please tell me  the professions that require women to expose their body semi-naked or fully-naked when they are on duty? Why must they do it?

We Muslims believe that you non-Muslims are free to do whatever you like as long as you do not insult Islam and Muslims by your actions. Why do the Western policemen detain the women who are fully naked in the public? Is it immoral to be naked? Then why are there some places inwhich women can be fully naked?

To me naked women is an insult to the dignity of women but I don't care about it as long as the women are the non-Muslims because I respect their rights to be semi-naked or fully-naked. Muslim women cover their hairs and bodies to preserve their dignity and they do it voluntarily because they believe in Allah and His messenger.

What does the Bible say about women who expose their hairs, bodies etc? Does the Bible allow women to expose their bodies, hairs etc?

Cyril's statement: In the West people from many religions and non-religions live together. So each religion can express itself but not infringe on the laws or on the sensibilities of others.

Answer: Cyril your statements have answered your own question and they are contradicting each other!

 Cyril's statement: The Muslim veil is an offence to people who respect the dignity of women.

VERSUS

Cyril's statement:In the West people from many religions and non-religions live together. So each religion can express itself but not infringe on the laws or on the sensibilities of others.

It seems to me that you Cyril prefer the man-made laws to the God-made laws. However the man-made laws contains errors and loop holes so they change the laws again and again.

 Please tell me how you will do to express yourself as a Christian but not infringe on the laws or on the sensibilities of Muslims. Will you stop drinking liquor before the Muslims in the Muslim nations? Oh you will say that Muslims have oppressed you by denying your right to drink liquor and become drunk!

We Muslims don't care whether you drink liquor and become drunk as long as you are not a Muslim. I don't care if you drink so much liquor that you end up dead!

By the way there Christians who wear crucifixs in Muslim nations and we Muslims don't care about them. You can even wear a giant crucifix that you will drop dead as a resut of its heavy wight in a Muslim nation and we don't care about it.

Cyril's statement: People from African culture have also been "abused" by Western laws that forbid the mutilation of women genitals.
Such is life in the West.

Answer: Do you Cyrils realise that your are imposing your way of life onto foreigners who belong to different cultures? Do you have any rights to say yours is holier than theirs? They believe in their own cultures so they do according to their cultures voluntarily. If you Cyril were born in the Amazon jungle as an American native, I think you will behave the ways the American natives do and you will wear loin etc proudly!

Cyril's statement: You must be joking when you say that non-Muslims can freely practice their religions in Muslim countries. I wonder what Copts think of their situation in Egypt, what Christians think in Indonesia, not to mention Saudi Arabia. Even in secular Turkey Christians have difficulties in practising their religion.


I will refute your statement above soon!





Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 3:02am

"The Belgian law forbids to walk around with a masked face. So the chador is forbidden.
French law forbids religious signs at school. So the Muslim veil for schoolgirls is forbidden."

These laws were directed specifically towards Muslims. Even the governments of these countries admit it. Turkey has banned hijab in most public places, and many European countries are working on anti-hijab legislation. Even in the U.S. women in hijab are often discriminated against, as well as Muslim men with beards. 

There are many companies in the West that practice discrimination toward Muslims.

If you think Muslims have so much freedom in the West, grow a beard, put on a kufi, and go stand at any airport....

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 3:55am
I am sorry if we are a little bit off-topic.

Mishmish

You say you are not offended by the hijab. That is not an argument as others are offended. You are not alone when you live in society.

You do not address the reason why many people find the hijab offensive but you use the easy way out by talking about another subject, a trick I have often noticed on Muslim forums. We can discuss about the Bible or the "nakedness" of European girls but at the moment we are dealing with the hijab.
Of course the reason why nuns are veiled or Orthodox Jewish women wear a wig derives from the same "marking" of women that males have imposed on them for millenaries.

Abrah

Your quote: "Therefore the Western nations such as Belgium and French do not respect the religious freedom."


No they don't when religious freedom infringes on laws and on the principles on which Western society is built.






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AbRah2006
 
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 5:09am

Cyril's statement: The Muslim veil is an offence to people who respect the dignity of women.

Answer:  Do the patients feel offended by the doctors and nurses who wear veil and cover their bodies in the hospitals?  It is an irony that they do not die of the veils.  Why must the doctors and nurses wear veils during the surgical operations etc?

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 6:38am

Originally posted by Cyril

The Muslim veil is an offence to people who respect the dignity of women.

What BS!

 

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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 6:53am

I know why the french and those others nations banned it, because they think the girls could be hiding weapons under the veil/hijab, have you seen the veils on the girls, Cyril? the scarf is wrapped tightly, well comfortable for wearing, and the hijab only covers the head to the shoulders, so you cannot be possibly be hiding any weapons  

Muslims are discriminated here because African women whether they are muslim or not wear head coverings of their tribes or culture and little old european women wear scarfs (and most they are not religious) and my great grandmother wore them, I have pictures  Tell me Cyril, why are these women not discriminated? Or even young western women who wear scarfs there are plenty of pictures, are they really an offence to the dignity of women?? there are are scarfs that are shaped in triangles, and to keep with the older children there are some for babies to wear.

So yeah, your statement The Muslim veil is an offence to people who respect the dignity of women is quite BS!



Edited by Angel
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Cyril
 
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Quote Cyril Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2006 at 7:06am
Angel

Why do you avoid saying the hijab or the niqab is a religious obligation to Muslim women while Muslim men can walk around in the heat in short sleeved shirts?

The comparison with hospital gear or veils worn by old ladies is ridiculous because those are only worn for practical or fashion reasons.

The hijab is not only to conceal the hair but symbolizes the control that has to be imposed on women and their movements. They are supposed to remain at home unless they carry their home walls along with them.



Edited by Cyril
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