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Interfaith Dialogue
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Sign*Reader
 
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2006 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by George

Originally posted by Abednego

Originally posted by George

What is going on with the following verses in the Qur'an?

 

"They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" (Surah 10:68)

And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour. Surah 21.26

They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is. Surah 2:116-117

 

The use of the word "offspring" seems to imply that Allah thinks that Christians believe that sex was involved by Allah in the conception of Jesus.  Is it?

 

What is Allah trying to tell us?

 

Thanks

This has the makings of an fascinating discussion. I have the goose bumps!

Goose bumps.  Yes.  Sort of like thinking of a hot dog, wouldn't you say so, Pal?

Peace



I don,t know where you live -- all the Christian preachers I happened to listen to on our Sunday TV have been screaming the begotten son routine to the their flocks for as long as I can remember.  So what is the big deal about the same statement being quoted in Qur'an? The Arabic word 'walad' stands for offspring but male, boy, son only. Allah doesn't need the implication of sex in this matter, if He did He could bcs He is the creator of the sex also.

>>>>>>>>>Are you interested to start a thread on carnal desires of american preachers? that will be fascinating!!!!!!!!!!will give something to abednego ??///////////// I don't know what the moderator will say!
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 4:26am

George,

Before I give you answers, here is something very important and you should first try to understand this. If you do, you will then be able to appreciate my answers after reading the technicolour comment below.

The words Beget, Begot (Begat) and Begotten are archaic and antiquated, which means no longer in ordinary use, though retained for "special  purposes" only. These words are very primitive and are part of  an early period of a culture most likely Greece 7th-6th centuries BC. Please read the century period carefully. In other words, those words are obsolete.

We have never heard in the modern times that Jane and Michael married and the couple thought of begetting their first child. After they begat or begot the first, both planned to beget another one and begat or begot the second child. After Jane and Michael had begotten two children, they decided that they would stop at two and begat no more. Even fathering a child is obsolete and archaic now.  

Having explained that, here are the answers to your questions, George:

Q: Are you saying that the verses cannot be properly translated from the Arabic to English?  Why don't you post the Arabic and then give the translation.  I am particularly interested in the Arabic word for "begotten." 

The Arabs did not have any such a word like "Beget, Begat or Begot and Begotten in Arabic, even in the 6th or 7th Century A.D and even now they don't have such words. I am not saying that but I will say that Hebrew, Aramaic and even Greek cannot be properly translated into English. The Greek was translated into English and look! what did you get? You got "Beget, Begat and begotten". I know you are particularly interested in the Arabic word for "begotten" but there is no Arabic equivalent of such a word. The Arabs never "begat" children. They don't talk like that. In short, there is no Arabic word for "Beget". Arabs consider it very crude.

Q: What is the Arabic word for "begotten?"

Answered above. There is no word or it's equivalent in Arabic.

Q: What does Allah mean by the word "begotten or begetting?"

If the Arabs don't use that word and have no such word in Arabic, how do you expect Allah to use that? Those words mean nothing to Allah.

Q: I'm only interested in what I highlighted, BMZ.  We are talking about Allah and begotten a son and stuff like that.  What does Allah mean by "begetting a son."

I have already answered that clearly in answers above.

Q: I am happy to hear that Muslims do not believe that Christians believe that sex was involved in the conception of Jesus because they don't and never have.

That's good because the Muslims also don't and never have that. We are fully behind you on that.



Edited by bmzsp
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Quote George Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 7:17am

BMZ,

I will have comments later.  Could you please give us Surah 10:68 in Arabic and give us the English translation?

Peace

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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 7:25am

(DavidC)  “I guess Marcion, Servie. Based on the reference to Greek Philosophy.  Am I close?”

 

Yes. You are remarkably close. This is St. Irenaeus (Adversus Haereses) writing against one of Marcion’s contemporaries, fellow heresiarch Valentinus (135-160 CE) and against his disciples.  It sounds to me like there’s a whole lotta begettin’, conjugatin’ and shakin’ goin’ on and perhaps, just perhaps, rather like the Quran, St. Irenaeus does not (altogether) approve.

 

Next question: St. Irenaeus’s acceptable (by orthodox Christian standards) cosmogony differs from that proposed by Valentinus in which particulars?

 

(Not really.  The quiz has ended.)

 

Good job, DavidC.

   

Servie 

 

Ref:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm



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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 8:11am
Just as well the quiz is over.  I would probably answer Marçion again.  I always answer Marçion.  Marçion is my favorite, that is, my favorite's Marçion. 

You know, the old B&W TV show about the Apostolic Fathers that starred Bill Bixby and the guy with the retractable antennas and the flying saucer....
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 9:21am

Sure, George!

I will do the transliteration first for the benefit of all, in my own style, followed by translation in my own words and add a little commentary.

Surah 10 Yunus Verse 68:

"Qaalut-takha-za-l-laho wala-dan? Subhaa-na-hu; ho-wal-ghaneee-yo. Lahu maa fis-samaa-waatay wa maa fil-ard. In in-da-kum-min sultaanim bay-haaaza? A-taqu-loona alal-laahay maa laa ta'a-la-moon?"

Please mark the words takhaza and allah-o in Arabic in the above verse. Most translators choose the word Begat or Begot or Begotten for takhaza in order to make a point about the Christian writers' choice of the word "begotten".

And now here is the translation in my own words and I have already punctuated the Arabic verses to match those in the translation.

"They say that God has takenson? All Praise is only to God. God does not need anything. Everything in Heavens and Earth belong to God. Have you got a solid proof about this? And you say things about God, which you should not say or don't know?"

Commentary:

You will now realise that the Arabic word Takhazaa means has taken. The son is walad.

So, God is asking that who says that God has taken a son or God has got a son? This got has nothing to do with begot. Then the next word is Subhaanahu, which means Glory be only to God or All Praises are only for God and nobodyelse.

After that comes the word Ghani, which means Rich (free from needs and wants) and also means one who does not need anything from others but gives and grants to the needy. In other words God is rich and people are the needy ones and people need God.

Next, Allah asks for a solid proof about this and wants to know who gave the people authority to talk such nonsense. Or in simple words, by whose authority and people are asked to prove it!

Finally God shows displeaure by saying "You talk nonsense about God, yet do not realise?"

Hope all learn something new from the above effort.

"Wa maa taufiqui illah billahay." which means "(My success comes only from God Almighty)"  That was a good question, thanks & good night.

 

 

 



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Quote Miriam Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 12:24pm

Yet, I find this on the Islamic Al-Sunnah.com site, which totally disagrees with your rendering:

                      They say: Allah hath begotten a son, Glory be to Him. Nay, to Him belongs all that is in heavens and earth, every thing renders worship to Him.   (HOLY QURAN – 2:116)  O People of the Book ! Commit to excesses in your religion; nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more that) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not ‘THREE’ desist. It will be better for you. For Allah is One God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To him belong  all things in the heaven and on the earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah nor do the angels, those nearest  (to Allah) those who disdain his worship and arrogant, He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).        (HOLY QURAN – 4:171 – 172)

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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 1:52pm
BMZSP : Is there anything in the Arabic that might be interpreted as God installing Jesus as his heir or successor in governing the earth?

This is a common viewpoint among Christians.
David C.
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